Seat belt anchors - Fit for Purpose?

For documenting and technical details of T25 restorations and major repairs
[b]This section is for major restorations only.where to buy a panel or where to buy window rubbers belong in the bodywork seats and glass section.
Also please note,we need pictures of the restorations,without them posts are pretty useless.[\b]
Picture heavy and detailed threads , not for general banter or advertising
Traders welcome to post but not to advertise blatently
Threads will be cleaned of chit chat.

Moderators: User administrators, Moderators

Seat belt anchors - Fit for Purpose?

Postby Plasticman » 25 Jul 2010, 17:34

Well a mixed day finnished the main strip and set about the front, it hadnt had much work over the years so came off in one hit
Image theres only a small hole at the drivers side, :D but when the screen comes out no doubt there will be more, leaving the screen in was never an option as the rubber had perished and the screen is delaminating and I do not paint round glass and rubber. :!:
Now I know it would be foolish to suggest the welding is done but I nearly thought it was well sort of nearly, the n/s footwell needs a little work, not a lot but a bit ,
Now do we need seatbelts in these old buses, cos this is what I have
Image so I am away in leeds tommorow but first thing tuesday will be a new innerwing top and seat belt anchor, while Im at it I suppose I shall do the o/side too.

Mike
Plasticman
Trader
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 20:55
Location: lincolnshire
80-90 Mem No: 1948

Seat belt anchors - Fit for Purpose?

Postby Plasticman » 27 Jul 2010, 20:54

Cut the n/s seat belt area out back to good metal
Image
As built this is in 2 parts, the inner wing and the wheel arch with an overlap and spotwelded along its length, not the best idea as will become apparent, so down to my mates and guillotene a nice piece of 1.6mm plate, this I have cut to fit just under the remains of the wingtop, marked the fixing for the exp'tank and also the seatbelt anchor .
Drilled a 14mm hole for belt and welded a furthe 1.6mm plate carrying the belf nut to the underside of this,
Image
and closer up
Image
this shows the weld penetration, when doing this you have to be aware that the exp tank fits here and that the extra anchor bolt support does not lie in the path of the tank.
passenger footwell was quite good so just let in a small piece as no need to make work
Image
Now the scary bit is the drivers side, I felt this was quite solid until I gave it some propper abuse and it moved a bit so gave it some more and it just 'popped' out
Imageand closer up
Image

Now looking at ti it would seem that the boss of this anchor nut is welded to the underside of the panal right next to the overlapping seam, and no reinforcement plate so not clever, will cut this back and out and treat the same as passenger side.
mike
Plasticman
Trader
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 20:55
Location: lincolnshire
80-90 Mem No: 1948

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby cygnak » 27 Jul 2010, 21:58

Fantastic welding their mate. :ok Wish mine were anywhere near that level

The plate for the mudflap is a genius idea. Wonder why they never put that their in the first place. I may nick that idea when i come to do my back end if you don't mind
Simon and Nicola
Syncro Westfalia 1.9 DG LPG converted
User avatar
cygnak
 
Posts: 195
Joined: 10 May 2009, 21:55
Location: huddersfield
80-90 Mem No: 6770

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby Plasticman » 27 Jul 2010, 22:14

welds are gonna be cleaned up, vactanned and then seam sealered then painted, make the bu**ers last as long as pos. flaps are going to be mounted behind the plates so the carp wont get as lodged between flap and plate so much, it may not work but I think it should help and it CHEAP.
mike
Plasticman
Trader
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 20:55
Location: lincolnshire
80-90 Mem No: 1948

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby Plasticman » 28 Jul 2010, 21:26

The saga of the seat belts. this is the drivers mounting hole
Image
wire brushed off, the mounting bolts appear to be secured through one single thickness of metal,'the inner arch',which is less than 18g. the other piece of metal is the edge of the outer wheel arc panal and whilst the seat belt bolts through this the item itself is not even welded ,its a loose flap or was on mine
Image
it can be seen here resting next to the hole Im making, heres the underside view
Image
the rust is local to the mounting bolt, I have since burnt the rest away and its shiny and good.
so I have spot welded a 1.6mm plate with nut on to a 1.2mm plate and I am offering this up on the underside of the hole
Image
and welding it through the holes Ive drilled, As with the otherside care must be taked to ensure you dont foul the expansion tank,
and finaly another 1.2mm plate sits in the recess and is puddle welded through to the underplate and gassed in around its periphery,
Image

I saw no need to remove the whole section as I did the otherside for whilst Im not impressed with the design and gauge of metal used it is now stronger than new and doing it this way is neat and negates having to crawl around under the arch.
just a quick grind over and it will be smart enough.
spent rest of day clearing and cleaning the w'shop and van ready for some carefull grinding and then leading up. tailgate still to repair as I cant find a good one so this will do me.
mike
Plasticman
Trader
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 20:55
Location: lincolnshire
80-90 Mem No: 1948

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby HarryMann » 29 Jul 2010, 10:31

I shall be looking at mine pretty soon, which need 'doing'... easier on a Syncro with no fuel tanks up there.

and in that light one wonders if they should be done 'regardless' of rust and MOT 'ableness? Wonder what TUF think about that attachment strength?
User avatar
HarryMann
Admin/Mod
 
Posts: 9343
Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 11:40
Location: Herts, UK
80-90 Mem No: 379

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby Plasticman » 29 Jul 2010, 18:14

Point. I wont get into the theoretical discussions about just how strong they were, gut feeling says not strong enough.
its almost as bad as the aftermarket ones that get fastened to the sheet metal on the inside of rear pillars,
mike
Plasticman
Trader
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 20:55
Location: lincolnshire
80-90 Mem No: 1948

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby Cruz » 29 Jul 2010, 18:26

Are you saying the seatbelt plates that people use to strengthen the repair in this area and for fitting rear belts are not up to the job?
Cruz
 
Posts: 3919
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 10:40
80-90 Mem No: 2092

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby Plasticman » 29 Jul 2010, 19:07

No not really, those plates may well do the repair for the front seats . But this would be dependant on the rot present, however whilst the plates may in themselves be solid its what they are fastened to that is of greater importance.
With regard to using them in say the rear on the rear pillars, this is thin sheet metal. you can do the best weld in the world I can ndt it for you but at the end of the day it is welded onto thin sheet and so is not reinforced as per a propper seat belt anchorage . I say this with some experience as I have had rollcage designs and their component parts certified though some years ago now. :ok
mike
Plasticman
Trader
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 20:55
Location: lincolnshire
80-90 Mem No: 1948

Re: Body (or lack of it)

Postby HarryMann » 29 Jul 2010, 22:22

Are you saying the seatbelt plates that people use to strengthen the repair in this area and for fitting rear belts are not up to the job?


As Mick8y says, the plates themsleves look adequate, but perhaps in some instances they are installed 'as is' locally, without recourse to a wider survey and overall strengthening work. I'm sure they are not sold in any way other than to be fitted to additional reinforcing plates and refurbished 'as new or better' structure in the wider surrounding areas.

However, the ones originally referred to at £5 per pair, the first result that Google returned, did not look very well made in themselves, judging from a web photo.
User avatar
HarryMann
Admin/Mod
 
Posts: 9343
Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 11:40
Location: Herts, UK
80-90 Mem No: 379

Seat belt anchors - Fit for Purpose?

Postby Cruz » 29 Jul 2010, 22:31

What about using them for fitting aftermarket belts in the rear in the same position that VW fitted seat belt anchors?

On my van there is a pip mark (seen behind the rear air vents) where had it been a Caravelle VW would have drilled a hole and tack welded a scratty looking square threaded nut to the bodywork to take the seatbelt bolt just like the front anchor points as seen from inside the B pillar.

When I had my rotten front seat belt anchor point fixed I asked the bodyshop to fit the brickwerks plates as additional strength to the repair. My rot was nowhere near as bad as yours though Micky.
Cruz
 
Posts: 3919
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 10:40
80-90 Mem No: 2092

Seat belt anchors - Fit for Purpose?

Postby Plasticman » 29 Jul 2010, 23:06

No, I think you will be fine, I think harry helps sum it up , I would think that in places where vw intended seat belts to be fitted then these areas would be sufficiently (in the 70's when designed)strong enough but I would even then have expected them to fit a strengthening plate in these recesses,not to merely weld a small boss with nut affixed,

That said look what is classed as std on my van fronts at least, I can guarantee it would not pass in the 90's let alone now.

I havent seen the yard ones but they look a good starting base to work from, however if you were to fit 3point belts to the rear then I personally would not fit a small plate of any gauge directly to the rear corner for the top belt mount .It is debatable how heavy an impact you would have to sustain before the security of the mounting becomes inconsequential so to speak (ie that would be the least of your worries)
So we discuss the real world and the theoretical .

I was nearly decapitated many years ago in a racing accident and so have a certain interest in these matters, the race motors I went on to develope and build were all but indestructable in the real world.

It might be a good idea if the mods (harry) could maybe move this part of my thread to a new topic ( Seat belt mountings) as I think it warrants some further discussion and Im sure a few others will have some good input as well.
mike
Plasticman
Trader
 
Posts: 8053
Joined: 12 Oct 2005, 20:55
Location: lincolnshire
80-90 Mem No: 1948


Return to Restoration and Major Repairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests