Time we had a proper winch discussion...

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 15 Oct 2017, 10:56

Wise words Paul. How much s**t do we really "need" or is it just a case of want?

In my case its too easy to get carried away with the syncro resto-mod and keep adding to the spec.

But...I recall Clive slipping into a deep rut/ditch in Devon and without CJ, his Jeep and considerable experience the whole laning group would have been there a very long time and a lot of earthworks would have been needed to recover the trucks.

When Roger found a similar gully late in the day it was possible to get a vehicle past and on tarmac to pull FRD out but how often is this the case?

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 15 Oct 2017, 11:03

JustSharon wrote:On one occasion when we had been out on our own we got well and truly buried, couldn't use the winch as there wasn't anything decent to hook up to. That was an eventful afternoon and a lot of digging.

...and as we found out at SP this year, a ground anchor isn't always all that it appears to be!


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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 15 Oct 2017, 11:51

Further reading
http://www.landyonline.co.za/techtalk/winches.htm

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby clift_d » 15 Oct 2017, 11:56

If a winch is necessary to take, then a Tirfor can at least winch from any side. Also the weight of it can be stowed centrally, and/or split between different members of a group - the winch in one van and the cable in another. Then it would just be a case of having sufficient decent recovery points to hook up to. Couple it with some proper straps and a snatch block and you'd be more than covered.
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby JustSharon » 15 Oct 2017, 11:58

silverbullet wrote:
JustSharon wrote:On one occasion when we had been out on our own we got well and truly buried, couldn't use the winch as there wasn't anything decent to hook up to. That was an eventful afternoon and a lot of digging.

...and as we found out at SP this year, a ground anchor isn't always all that it appears to be!


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And that Ian is another discussion, eh Clive...
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby JustSharon » 15 Oct 2017, 12:00

silverbullet wrote:
But...I recall Clive slipping into a deep rut/ditch in Devon and without CJ, his Jeep and considerable experience the whole laning group would have been there a very long time and a lot of earthworks would have been needed to recover the trucks.

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Image

Wow back in 2013!!
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby jebiga41 » 15 Oct 2017, 16:05

Clive getting into trouble again :lol:
F*** your Syncro Westie I've a horse outside !
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 15 Oct 2017, 16:18

I think the photo is one for a H&S enquiry!

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Boldsailor » 16 Oct 2017, 12:15

There seems to be some concern over the weight of a Tirfor with people anticipating a hernia or a bad back. The actual TU16 winching unit weighs in at just under 20 Kg and the 20 metre wire rope spool at less than 14 Kg. The wire rope has a minimum breaking strain of between 8000 Kg and 9200 Kg according to various sources and so with the appropriate sheave pulley block you will be able to pull your Syncro vertically up a cliff face, or effect any more likely recovery situation manually without the pulley and without worrying about dead batteries, dead engines, fairlead or roller angles or whether you can get a mate to drive his own vehicle into a hazardous situation in order to winch you, you simply walk your Tirfor in and find a suitable anchor. You don't even need to worry about spooling, you simply uncoil the wire rope, disengage the clutch mechanism and feed all the excess wire through the unit before engaging in either forward or backwards winching direction and off you go with the first pull of the handle moving the load. As for size, on my visit to Iceland last year I carried the Tirfor, the wire rope spool, an ARB snatch strap, a ground anchor and a boulder/tree strop all in the area behind the drivers seat, there can always be a space found for the Tirfor.
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby bat » 16 Oct 2017, 15:18

On the assumption you are not in a hurry, the Tirfor does appear to be the more versatile option.
I am assuming the Tirfor is capable of lowering as well as lifting, something I believe the ratchet winches struggle with.
It’s biggest drew back (to me) seem to be the steel cable.
The need to move it oneself may be a bit of a chore, but in certain situations could be an advantage.

How does the Tirfor s 20 kg compare to the weight of a fixed winch, ether one will add to the vans overall weight, so the lighter one may be the best option.

What size (how powerful a) winch should I be looking at? ? Or comparing the Tirfor against.

Still curios on what people think of these,

Image
http://www.bushwinch.com.au

There are probable other version of the same thing available but I would have thought all are primarily self-rescue, any thoughts.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby clift_d » 16 Oct 2017, 16:33

A Tirfor TU16 is 20kg plus a 20m cable is another 13kg, and you can stowe this weight centrally or distribute it around the van. Electric / hydraulic winches are generally 50kg - 60kg and generally loaded all on the nose, hence the tendency that some have found for the front end to get buried when they're fitted. In terms of function, you can lower as well as lift with the Tirfor. However, I would suggest it is the fact that the Tirfor doesn't need the engine to be running that is the biggest advantage.

I'm really not sure whether that wheel mounted thing is a good idea at all. You'd need the engine running, and it would load all the winching forces on the running gear of one wheel at one corner, rather than more centrally on a recovery / towing eye on the frame. Presumably you'd be putting a fair bit of force on the steering rack if you used the front wheels, or pulling on the trailing arm mount if you used the rear wheel - neither of which sounds ideal to me.
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby bat » 16 Oct 2017, 16:56

clift_d wrote:A Tirfor TU16 is 20kg plus a 20m cable is another 13kg, and you can stowe this weight centrally or distribute it around the van. Electric / hydraulic winches are generally 50kg - 60kg and generally loaded all on the nose, hence the tendency that some have found for the front end to get buried when they're fitted. In terms of function, you can lower as well as lift with the Tirfor. However, I would suggest it is the fact that the Tirfor doesn't need the engine to be running that is the biggest advantage.

I'm really not sure whether that wheel mounted thing is a good idea at all. You'd need the engine running, and it would load all the winching forces on the running gear of one wheel at one corner, rather than more centrally on a recovery / towing eye on the frame. Presumably you'd be putting a fair bit of force on the steering rack if you used the front wheels, or pulling on the trailing arm mount if you used the rear wheel - neither of which sounds ideal to me.


Sorry not a very informative photo, they are used in tandem and basically pull the vircal forward or back in a straight line,
no diagonal or side pulling ability as far as I can see and as you say they need an engine and possible put weight/load where it’s not supposed to be.

The Tirfor seems to give a considerable weight advantage, yet another point to add to its merits.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 16 Oct 2017, 18:23

The arguments for pulling the vehicle back out of the bad situation it is in, rather than pulling it further into a worsening one, is compelling.

That being the case, a rear-mounted device makes a lot more sense for self-recovery, especially if, for example, you had an excursion into the scenery which put the van nose-first into a ditch.

I do wonder if the whole front-mounted winch concept is thanks to the early series LandRovers etc with their engine crankshaft-driven winches? (I am aware that a variety of rear-mounted PTO driven devices were available including a capstan winch)

Slight aside: I am not too proud to recount my recovery by a Fiat Panda 4x4 one snowy winter when I got stuck in an iced up car park while taking the kids sledging.
The temperatures were slowly rising and while we were parked, the tyres settled into the compacted snow and the syncro simply spun all four wheels when we tried to leave.
As we were about to start stuffing frozen grass and twigs under the tyres, the local AWD club rolled in and the only one to stop and offer help was the Panda driver, who was sat on wet tarmac. One light pull on the tow rope and we were out of the ruts...
Had we been there later in the day it would have been a different story.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 16 Oct 2017, 18:32

Bushwinch requires the use of extended wheel nuts, that the drum locks onto (presumably with curved keyhole slots and a left/right handed drum)
It might be ok for use in wide open spaces but here in the UK withour narrow lanes etc I can't see it being a good idea.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Jim San » 16 Oct 2017, 18:45

I like the innovation and the lightness of the bushwinch but it is even more limited than mounted winches.

In my mind the portable winch is the easy winner. If it was to have synthetic rope and maybe an engineering rethink with the view to make it 25% lighter even better. I don't need an extra 40Kg on the front of my van for the daily commute but having an option in the garage to take with me for trips would be of interest - I'd just hope that when the time did come for the winch to be used, that it was not still in the garage! At least with a fitted one, you know you have it with you.
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