Time we had a proper winch discussion...

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 14 Oct 2017, 17:31

PS I have seen neat low-profile roller fairleads but the thought of a synthetic rope getting squeezed into the corner of the rollers did occur to me.
Have you ever witnessed this?
Re: synth rope care, is there any reason not to take it off the drum if its unlikely to be used for a long period? I mean how long does it take to actually spool 30m of rope? 10 mins tops?

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby volks_womble » 14 Oct 2017, 18:10

silverbullet wrote:PS I have seen neat low-profile roller fairleads but the thought of a synthetic rope getting squeezed into the corner of the rollers did occur to me.
Have you ever witnessed this?


Nope, I have to admit I haven't. When synthetic started to become the norm, the accepted wisdom was to swap rollers for hawsers. I think rollers only became normal as they wore less with wire rope. Cast iron hawsers were the standard on older industrial winches on tow trucks and the like. I had a superwinch husky with a cast iron hawse on at one point.

silverbullet wrote:Re: synth rope care, is there any reason not to take it off the drum if its unlikely to be used for a long period? I mean how long does it take to actually spool 30m of rope? 10 mins tops?


Taking the rope off the drum is the best thing to do. Spooling back onto the drum is a matter of taste. Most drums have an anchor point to attach the rope to, but that is useless with synthetic- it's the friction of the first few turns that you are actually pulling against - the anchor point is just to stop the rope coming off if you unspool too much.

With synthetic there are two techniques to spooling on;
1 lay the end of the rope along the drum, an then start winding the rope on back over the bit you just laid on. This means the first turn is always clamping the rope to the drum. Using gaffer tape to hold the first end while you get the first few turns in is the usual technique.
2 is to loop the rope over the drum, and splice an eye into the end of the rope, reasonably tight to the drum. There are various ways to do the splice depending on how permanent and/or load bearing you want the eye to be. You can then hold the eye tight to the drum (gaffer tape is also useful here) and start to spool on.

The difference between the two is minimal in usual use. The difference comes when you have to lower out - if you come to the end of the rope under tension with the first method, the rope will just leave the drum, and you will carry on down what're you you carefully lowering down in a now less than controlled manner! Using the second technique (the the eye splice) you will come to a halt, and be supported on your rope. You won't be able to which in, but you also won't be careening downwards either.

Both of these require access to the drum though, so if you are going to hide a lowlife winch under the cab floor, spooling on might not be so easy...

Hth
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby volks_womble » 14 Oct 2017, 18:13

silverbullet wrote:? I mean how long does it take to actually spool 30m of rope? 10 mins tops?


Depends how fast your winch is... hydraulics do tend to take their time... it probably takes no more than a minute on my Warn... :D
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 14 Oct 2017, 18:32

The engineer abhors the idea of a rope sliding over a static hawse when rollers would mean almost no friction, so no potential for heat damage...

I think that for most people (non-competetive, stop and have a brew types) speed isnt really an issue in a recovery situation!

Better get my rope splicing up to snuff then...

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Al Housman » 14 Oct 2017, 18:50

I'm with Boldsailor on this.

I use my syncro almost daily offroad for work and have ended up in some pretty inhospitable places over the years.

The Tirfor I've got cost me £70 and I splashed out on a proper new 20metre cable which lives on top of the spare wheel alongside of the winch under the rear passenger seat in the Doka.

I like the reassurance of knowing that I can winch my truck both forwards and backwards (and even sideways). Why would you want to spend more on something that is only capable of pulling you forwards? A big winch on the front may look cool but how much use is it really?
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 14 Oct 2017, 20:08

Good points raised there too.
On the one hand, a front mounted winch only enables (in broad terms) forward progress, but it does mean that such a vehicle can be used to stabilize or recover another disabled vehicle, assuming it can actually get close enough to be useful or make use of other anchor points for pulleys etc.
How many winches get more use helping someone else's vehicle rather than their own?
I guess there is a valid argument for a demountable winch that can be placed front or rear, but that bings its own engineering challenges and introduces more potential fail points if poorly designed.
Is such a system commercially available and would you want to lug 30kg of electric winch out from storage inside the van in order to mount it?

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Apex » 14 Oct 2017, 21:26

Sorry to join the discussion late but hey ho,
I have had my Winch stuck on the front since 1989, when i get stuck i'm generally in a wood or field late at night in the worst conditions possible and alone.
I have never used either winch to recover anybody else so no opinion on that.

Having the winch mounted above the bumper to me makes good sense, as generally when i'm in the poo poo and going nowhere the front is down to the bumper with mud everywhere, being able to push the clutch out and hook onto something quick makes life easy, generally finding a suitable tree or anchor is the next problem, so i always carry an extra 50 lm of rope, the winch has 30 lm of synthetic, i changed it years ago. with the wire as soon as you are able to move again then you have to lay the wire back on the drum running it through your glove under tension or it wont all fit, or you drive home with it wrapped around the bars. So rope every time for me.
Over the years ive had to strip and rebuild it about three or four times so easy access is a plus. The winch up front is a Ramsey.
I have been stuck in situations where going forwards wasn't an option, so i have a superwinch that hooks onto the tow bar kept up back.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby bat » 14 Oct 2017, 21:30

I’ve been looking for a portable manual winch for synthetic rope that has no limit on the rope length,
so far the only one I have found is this one,

“Tractel "Evak 500" Synthetic Rope Manual Operation Rescue Winch”

Image


Quit lightweight, but not a very high load, would have to be used with a pulley system to reduce load on the winch and even with this may still be to weak, I am surprised there aren’t stronger ones on the market will keep looking

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby volks_womble » 14 Oct 2017, 22:55

silverbullet wrote:I guess there is a valid argument for a demountable winch that can be placed front or rear, but that bings its own engineering challenges and introduces more potential fail points if poorly designed.
Is such a system commercially available and would you want to lug 30kg of electric winch out from storage inside the van in order to mount it?


Having the choice to recover forwards or backwards (or sideways) is definitely a good thing*. Goodwinch do do a demountable system for electric winches called the Bak-Rak which relies on either a towball mount or use of a US style receiver hitch. If you were building something into the vehicle, building a 2" receiver would seem like a good way to go.

Cheers,
Mark

*in competition, we ran 3 winches - front, rear and centre often using more than one at a time.. occasionally all 3. It is perfectly possible to recover the vehicle backwards using a front mounted winch too, although not expcially forgiving on the rope or the vehicle. For a really ingenious system check out the Foers Vector winching system built into their Ibex vehicles - the winch is centre mounted and rear facing. It emerges at the rear crossmember and goes though a pulley to reemerge on the front bumper. You can use the front hook like you would any front winch, but you can also use the loop at the back similarly to the way you use a snatch block, so your 1 winch works from both front and rear.
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby hugomonkey » 15 Oct 2017, 07:40

i´ll be putting a 9500lb winch on the front of my doka, pretty much the same setup as Dai and then a 4500lb on the back as an emergency winch and for pulling cars up onto my trailer, both will be with synthetic rope :D
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby JustSharon » 15 Oct 2017, 07:56

silverbullet wrote:I dont like any of the bolt-on attempts for the T3. Even the factory one was a bit nasty. I do recall Pete saying that having a big mass basically sat on the bumper of the yellow doka upset the handling quite a bit.
I know that some people will say there is an argument for ease of laying up the drum but the benefits outweigh that in my eyes.

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It did indeed. Although the yellow one was jacked up, decent springs etc, it was quite partial to digging it's nose in. I shall take the pics off of PB and load them up on my other hosting site a bit later.

On one occasion when we had been out on our own we got well and truly buried, couldn't use the winch as there wasn't anything decent to hook up to. That was an eventful afternoon and a lot of digging.
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby jebiga41 » 15 Oct 2017, 10:31

I still have a warning and it's original mount from the unicorn which clips around the front deform and bumper and puts the winch above the bumper but still haven't fitted it to any of my vehicles as never saw the need and remebered how the front of the unicorn rose by approx 2 inches when I removed it. It seems to be a lot of weight of be carrying around plus the invitation for theft unless you are going out on your own to remote places I don't see the point. Most winch owners also seem to only use their winch to pull out other vehicles which realistI call you could be just done with the van
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby jebiga41 » 15 Oct 2017, 10:40

The golden rule of offloading is not to go out alone and apart from one or two incidences where ratchet straps or trifold equivalent have been used I have nevery seen winches been of any real advantage apart from lads using them on challenge trucks or working vehicles. I know a lot of experienced off road offroaders who have never used winches A good shovel mattock waffle boards and high lift jack decent strops a friend in another vehicle and a cup of tea to assess the situation are far more essential pieces of kit imho
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 15 Oct 2017, 10:43

The bakrak certainly looks like an interesting option but I was under the impression that recovery using a towball was a big no-no because of the projectile risks in the event if failure?
Having said that a 2" receiver is only as strong as the bolts in shear and the neck of a 50mm towball has a far greater cross-sectional area than that.
Maybe that is one for a seperate debate...

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby jebiga41 » 15 Oct 2017, 10:46

Although having said all that I'm still tempted to fit the bracket (would have been TV approved as was a German (might offset the lidl spring at the front ;) and possibly make some more if peeps are interested
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