Time we had a proper winch discussion...

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Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 13 Oct 2017, 12:42

Who has got one? Steel cable or synthetic (dyneema) rope? Electric or hydraulic? How is it installed (pics please) When did you last use it and how did it go?

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Winchweight » 13 Oct 2017, 16:22

In this day and age, surely it's gotta be synthetic rope? Lighter, less dangerous if it breaks - granted less resistant to chaffage.

Are you planning on making a chassis mount? :ok
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 13 Oct 2017, 18:28

Well, while the bus is being cut and welded, seems silly not to add a few hours to the build and do it right.
FWIW, I favour hydraulic drive with synthetic rope and the fairlead fully integrated into the deform panel right behind the bumper i.e. flush with no protrusions. I have found a really nice low-profile roller one, which means almost no friction to overheat a synthetic rope (unlike a hawse type)
Winch mounted underneath, in front of the steering rack, out of the weather. Keeps the weight as close to the axle as possible.
To my mind, if your engine is dead you are stuffed anyway and totally reliant on another wagon to recover you, so why go electric?
From what I have seen, an electric only gives you one good pull before the volts drop off or the motor/cables get all hot & bothered. Plus the dead weight of more batteries...Hydraulic will work all day off the pas pump, just the same as if you were driving.
Winchmax hydraulic motors need 108 bar, which fits well with the 115 bar T3 pas pump :)
Hydro may not be as fast as electric but slow and steady is fine by me, no sense rushing when it all goes wonky.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Jim San » 13 Oct 2017, 18:31

Winchweight wrote:In this day and age, surely it's gotta be synthetic rope? Lighter, less dangerous if it breaks - granted less resistant to chaffage.

Are you planning on making a chassis mount? :ok


As above, according to the talk we had at Big Outdoors, for our size vehicles it makes sense to have the lighter and safer synthetic rope
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby busvanman » 13 Oct 2017, 19:25

http://www.warriorwinch.co.uk

Ok never mounted a winch on a syncro but did use a few from this guy on a few suzuki's and land rovers. Synthetic rope was miles better on recovery for the simple reason steel ropes are prone to have broken strands these can be really painful when your dragging your line out to an anchor point or vehicle. No matter how careful you are a sharp rock soon causes steel ropes to fray.

Above link should have pointed you towards winch solutions in haydock
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Winchweight » 13 Oct 2017, 19:29

Apparently Goodwinch (the bloke with the demo at Big Outdoors) did make a T3 Syncro winch mount.
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 13 Oct 2017, 19:44

I dont like any of the bolt-on attempts for the T3. Even the factory one was a bit nasty. I do recall Pete saying that having a big mass basically sat on the bumper of the yellow doka upset the handling quite a bit.
I know that some people will say there is an argument for ease of laying up the drum but the benefits outweigh that in my eyes.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 13 Oct 2017, 19:50

I like the look of this one, nice and compact and 6.8tonne rated. They also do a remote control and hydraulic solenoid & hose kit.
http://www.winchmax.co.uk/products/hydr ... winch-only

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby bat » 13 Oct 2017, 20:42

Hi All
what are peoples thoughts on these. (good, bad or indifferent).
http://www.bushwinch.com.au/

and Capstan Winches

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 13 Oct 2017, 21:18

A crankshaft driven capstan on the back end could make for an interesting addition to a hard-core winching syncro but who has one of those?
They are a bit "classic" though. Land Rover dropped the Fairey one by the end of the 70's iirc
They command big money too!
I understand the technique means that the rope man is very "involved" when compared to using a drum winch.

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Boldsailor » 14 Oct 2017, 14:54

I know the electric or hydraulic versions look good mounted on the front of vehicles but electric or hydraulic winches are not the only options when it comes to serious winching capability. I have had a manually operated Tractel Tirfor TU16 winch (rated at 1600Kg) for a number of years now and they are superb. They are in use by armies and search and rescue services throughout the world and you will be able to pull your vehicle, or anyone elses, out of trouble in any direction. They will also pull tree stumps out of your garden and, although heavy, they are portable enough to be carried around to inaccesible places. If 1600Kg isn't enough for you then there is a TU32 verson rated at 3200Kg. There is a very good YouTube clip of a lady pulling a Landrover out sideways to demonstrate how little effort is involved in operating the winch. And, for the recorded, the cable is steel.
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby Winchweight » 14 Oct 2017, 16:10

Tirfors are great, but they are heavy and you need to lug a big coil of steel wire around, unless they now use synthetic?
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 14 Oct 2017, 16:23

I have a 3 ton Rotalift and whilst its a great bit of kit, the weight is enough to put me off using it for fear of damaging my back!
Its a "dead in the water" option afaiac.
Bailey make a 2-ton rope haul but is that really going to be man enough to drag a bogged down syncro?
Then there are ratchet pullers like this one, that features a synthetic rope
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=1856

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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby volks_womble » 14 Oct 2017, 17:03

I have done a little bit of winching, albeit predominantly with Land Rovers.

The electric/hydraulic/mechanical debate is really down to personal choice and your use case. Mechanical and electric both require the engine to be running, so without it you are dead.

Electric really needs the alternator to be dumping charge into the battery, but even then it won't keep up, so as has been mentioned, if your engine is dead you only have max one pull.

On the electric front, my current Warn winch has a 4.5HP motor on and will draw over 500A at stall (4.5HP =~ 6.3kW, P/V=I so 6300W/12V=525A) and that's not the biggest winch motor by a long shot (we ran 2x6HP motors on the front of our winch challenge truck). Running decent cable to (and from) an electric winch is key - 35mm^2 minumium (most starter motor feeds run at 25mm^2) I have been known to use 50mm^2 and some have used 70... although I think that's OTT...

Electric is my choice as running even 35mm cable around a vehicle is a lot easier than running hydraulic pipe work or additional prop shafts. I already have multiple batteries. If I were doing so on my t25 I would look for a 140A alternator to fit too.

Synthetic vs wire: synthetic wins every time for me for one reason above all others - they do not store energy the same way a wire rope does. When a synthetic rope snaps, it just drops to the floor. When a wire rope snaps, it whips around and can do serious injury to anything close - one of the reasons winch sails are really important when using wire. I have been stood next to synthetic rope snapping numerous times. I once saw a wire snap from quite a way away, and still took cover!

Synthetic rope needs more care, and will need replacing more often - it will be significantly more expensive when you do. Synthetics need to have any mud and grit washed out as this abraded the internals. Synthetics are also prone to UV degradation, so ideally want to be covered if on the front of a vehicle. If you mount underneath in the spare wheel space, then that is less of an issue, but you will need to be wary of road dirt getting into the rope - they are not fit and forget.

Hawse vs roller fairlead: with synthetic I would always use a hawse so that the rope cannot get pinched in the corners between rollers. Personally polished stainless is my go to choice. The aluminium ones are quite easily scored and marked, and as soon as you raise a burr the rope is at risk. There are (or were) some large diameter hawses about to reduce the angle the rope goes over, but the are probably too bulky for t25 use (checkout deltatek).

Hmm, that turned into a bit of a brain dump, apologies. if you have read the far, I can probably go on for hours...
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Re: Time we had a proper winch discussion...

Postby silverbullet » 14 Oct 2017, 17:23

Thanks Mark, the voice of real experience is always most welcome!

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