Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

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Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby PC52 » 15 Oct 2016, 19:00

Wacking in 110bhp from the AFN, is it worth a punt a DMF? Box has just gone for another rebuild - pinion shaft failed, we thinks metal fatigue but then the box was terribly abused in a previous set up.
What are your opinions?
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby max and caddy » 16 Oct 2016, 14:52

What exactly failed on the pinion shaft? teeth come off?
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby Aidan » 16 Oct 2016, 17:40

teeth come off, 2 and a half of them, looks like an old fracture in one which failed taking the others with it, no other issues with the box set up was fine the other 4 teeth are ok
old off road hard damage or a bump start some point in the last 30 years finally failed
I don't have the old ones ultrasound tested or anything so if I can't visibly see damage old parts do get reused

Pete and Sharon just want some feedback from those few who have got DMFs fitted, I think there's not many of them out there here in the UK, a few of Marios customers, a few well read diy peeps who never post for some reason
Baxter has done a few, but his isn't running so no feedback possible there, so come on you TDi boys why is it you are all so shy about talking about them on this and alt engines forum on here and sharing the knowledge ?


just as an aside and rant

I don't do diesel myself but it boggles me that there isn't a UK plug and play definitive recipe and kit, parts and knowledge centre for TDi in the T3 Syncro despite Andy doing the looms and multiple commercial installers across the land and hundreds of them running about

I've got a gearbox here from a van that has been running a golf engine for 10 years with no spigot bearing that has been in and out of garages for all those years for leak and clutch issues and none of them have known to or have done the basic thing fit £7 spigot bearing and have just bodged and fiddled around it until eventually box ran dry and seized

my point is if someone who knew what they were doing updated the diesel tdi wiki and q and a on alt engines and made it idiot proof I wouldn't have to deal with the idiots' actions consequences, :ok

Petrol engines are best boys and girls from my point of view but don't forget the spigot bearing in your petrol IL4 conversions too :ok
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby silverbullet » 17 Oct 2016, 07:42

Get a couple of cans of dye penetrant & developer to find hairline cracks. Cheap, quick and easy. Soak with brake cleaner to degrease before spraying on the red dye. We use it on steering components that have known failure areas.
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby jes*b » 17 Oct 2016, 18:18

IMHO ...This is the best post for a long while......
Aidan wrote:teeth come off, 2 and a half of them, looks like an old fracture in one which failed taking the others with it, no other issues with the box set up was fine the other 4 teeth are ok
old off road hard damage or a bump start some point in the last 30 years finally failed
I don't have the old ones ultrasound tested or anything so if I can't visibly see damage old parts do get reused

Pete and Sharon just want some feedback from those few who have got DMFs fitted, I think there's not many of them out there here in the UK, a few of Marios customers, a few well read diy peeps who never post for some reason
Baxter has done a few, but his isn't running so no feedback possible there, so come on you TDi boys why is it you are all so shy about talking about them on this and alt engines forum on here and sharing the knowledge ?


just as an aside and rant

I don't do diesel myself but it boggles me that there isn't a UK plug and play definitive recipe and kit, parts and knowledge centre for TDi in the T3 Syncro despite Andy doing the looms and multiple commercial installers across the land and hundreds of them running about

I've got a gearbox here from a van that has been running a golf engine for 10 years with no spigot bearing that has been in and out of garages for all those years for leak and clutch issues and none of them have known to or have done the basic thing fit £7 spigot bearing and have just bodged and fiddled around it until eventually box ran dry and seized

my point is if someone who knew what they were doing updated the diesel tdi wiki and q and a on alt engines and made it idiot proof I wouldn't have to deal with the idiots' actions consequences, :ok

Petrol engines are best boys and girls from my point of view but don't forget the spigot bearing in your petrol IL4 conversions too :ok
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby max and caddy » 17 Oct 2016, 19:12

I have replaced plenty of failed DMFs over the years but despite this I do see their worth...to use one means using the TDI input shaft and the whole package is a few hundred pounds but better than wrecking the pinion...however there are people out there running TDI without major issues..nothing lasts forever, the main problem is not the TDi itself but the cost and rarity of the replacement parts maybe?
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby Aidan » 17 Oct 2016, 19:12

silverbullet wrote:Get a couple of cans of dye penetrant & developer to find hairline cracks. Cheap, quick and easy. Soak with brake cleaner to degrease before spraying on the red dye. We use it on steering components that have known failure areas.


I crack test the synchro hubs that way but I'm not about to check every single component , this is only the 2nd pinion head total failure in 10 years that I have seen (synchrohubs 9/10 are cracked) - don't forget that we're looking at it now after it failed and the failure looks like (best guess on colouration of materials) it came from deep inside the material so even if I'd checked it three years ago there's no saying it would have shown up or been visible at the base of the tooth
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby max and caddy » 17 Oct 2016, 19:28

Well every 3/4 hub I have seen had cracks and these were from both feeble 1.6 TD vans and 2.1 petrol ones so I'm of the opinion they are just not strong...hopefully the albinos one in the pick up is the answer to this...and the relatively new vw in my van is ok so far with the AAZ. Two pinion heads in 10 years ....that's not enough to make me think DMF is is needed...how many part failed TDi v every other option pinion heads would you genuinely say are attributable to the TDI square wave output compared to the silky petrol sine wave?
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby PC52 » 17 Oct 2016, 19:41

max and caddy wrote:Well every 3/4 hub I have seen had cracks and these were from both feeble 1.6 TD vans and 2.1 petrol ones so I'm of the opinion they are just not strong...hopefully the albinos one in the pick up is the answer to this...and the relatively new vw in my van is ok so far with the AAZ. Two pinion heads in 10 years ....that's not enough to make me think DMF is is needed...how many part failed TDi v every other option pinion heads would you genuinely say are attributable to the TDI square wave output compared to the silky petrol sine wave?


DMF thoughts are that, it's the pure reason that the box is now on it's 5th rebuild, 2 early ones nothing to do with Aidan. The last 2 builds have been with Aidan - however, the previous crap builds were a contributing cause to 1. main bearing failure & 2. Albin's 4th gear failure.
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby HarryMann » 19 Oct 2016, 07:35

Aidan wrote:
silverbullet wrote:Get a couple of cans of dye penetrant & developer to find hairline cracks. Cheap, quick and easy. Soak with brake cleaner to degrease before spraying on the red dye. We use it on steering components that have known failure areas.


I crack test the syncro hubs that way but I'm not about to check every single component , this is only the 2nd pinion head total failure in 10 years that I have seen (synchrohubs 9/10 are cracked) - don't forget that we're looking at it now after it failed and the failure looks like (best guess on colouration of materials) it came from deep inside the material so even if I'd checked it three years ago there's no saying it would have shown up or been visible at the base of the tooth

Only the 2nd total failure you've seen in 10 years...
However, I'm sure there's been lots of partials, galling, surface damage and noisy reduction gears Aidan.
Of course we do hear of others around the globe and when/if it happens isn't quite like an engine problem...

If most of this is material based e.g. minute weaknesses being exposed by life and load >> pretty well the defnition of fatigue
...then new reduction gesrs of the same design mated properly in a rebuild should last for another life cycle, whatever that's estimated to be (100,000)
..yet this life cycle will begin with tDi power not JX or WBX.
Food for thought if you see whst I mean...

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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby HarryMann » 19 Oct 2016, 07:44

Mmm forgotten about that 4th gear failure.

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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby Simon Baxter » 19 Oct 2016, 11:58

Aidan wrote:
just as an aside and rant

I don't do diesel myself but it boggles me that there isn't a UK plug and play definitive recipe and kit, parts and knowledge centre for TDi in the T3 Syncro despite Andy doing the looms and multiple commercial installers across the land and hundreds of them running about

my point is if someone who knew what they were doing updated the diesel tdi wiki and q and a on alt engines and made it idiot proof I wouldn't have to deal with the idiots' actions consequences, :ok



Thing is, everyone wants to do their conversion their way for whatever reason, there is no right answer, everyone wants to do the job differently.
Usually it's the customers pocket that decides which way they do it.
To me there's one way to do it, to Mario there is a different way, to the £800 men in sheds then there's something completely different.
Just the same as Subaruining a van, loads of different ways of fitting the chocolate crank engines into a T3.
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby max and caddy » 19 Oct 2016, 21:11

As above...also...and I have said this before...the syncro driveline is not upto the job...the cogs are too small...they survive well due to high quality manufacture from the past, but they are a compromise from the start due to an adapted 2WD transmission based on a old design ..

Drive it hard and expect it to offroad and wear will be accelerated...add parts rarity, and cost, and the fact there's only a handful ( 3..4? ) repairers in the country who are able to actually make a transmission that is nearly as good a new one overall..and the driveline becomes a worry.
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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby HarryMann » 19 Oct 2016, 22:18

max and caddy wrote:As above...also...and I have said this before...the syncro driveline is not upto the job...the cogs are too small...they survive well due to high quality manufacture from the past, but they are a compromise from the start due to an adapted 2WD transmission based on a old design ..

Drive it hard and expect it to offroad and wear will be accelerated...add parts rarity, and cost, and the fact there's only a handful ( 3..4? ) repairers in the country who are able to actually make a transmission that is nearly as good a new one overall..and the driveline becomes a worry.

Correct... it is what it is. A very well engineered package in a small volume.
The one obvious mistake apart from the stress raisers on the baulk rings was perhaps to use existing mag-ally material choice rather than a better dural style casting from day 1.
A few of us are looking at getting a better transaxle produced along very similar lines... it can definitely happen if enough owners worldwide would rather upgrade one time only to an all new and improved transaxle.
It won't though be a 500 N-m all singing & dancing bulletproof racing box IMO. Just a new and more robust re-engineered original but quite adequate for punchy tDis and powerful petrols.

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Re: Dual mass flywheel & Clutch - opinions

Postby PC52 » 30 Nov 2016, 11:15

Now I've given you all time to have a think about this, is it worth fitting a DMF?

Who's running one?

Opinions and a bit more discussion, please.
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