Reconditioned starter motors

[jpennington]

"They don't make them like that any more!"

The original starter on my '86 DJ lasted 19 years. The first recon unit lasted 6 years, the second one is failing occasionally after 4 years.
The failure on both recon units is the solenoid switch not making contact - an electrical fault, mechanically the solenoid works fine.

So, two questions:
1. Do reconditioners bother to recon the solenoid switch?
2. Does anyone supply reconditioned (or even new) solenoids?

BTW Both recon units were 'premium' ones from GSF, badged Hella.

jp

[CovKid]

They normally fit new ones. Yes you can buy solenoids seperately (typically £20 - £30). Thats if you can shift the screws to get the old one off. Personally I'd just rebuild it. Brushes are cheap. As long as bearings not shot, its not too bad a job.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... d&_sacat=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - to give you some idea.

Watch its not a fault on ignition switch though.

[jpennington]

Thanks CovKid - very helpful.
I had been searching for "T25 starter solenoid" without success. I guess I need to find a VW/Bosch solenoid and then check dimensions. Anyone know the right Bosch part number?

I've already had the solenoid off to check & clean it, so no problem with the screws. Also replaced the ignition switch last week, just to be sure.

jp

[CovKid]

Worth popping the end off starter to check:

a) braid is actually getting a good contact
b) you do have some brushes left
c) commutator is clean

Heres what I found in mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNKSeAAd3rk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - it actually worked but not always and sometimes slowly.

[Oldiebut goodie]

If you can give me the number from your starter - should be something like 0 001 121 030, I will have a look in the catalogue for the solenoid:
eg parts for that starter are:

ARMATURE 1 004 011 086
BRUSH HOLDER 1 004 336 765
FORK LEVER 1 001 933 111
BUSH D.E 1 000 390 004
BUSH C.E 1 000 301 056
DRIVE 1 006 209 762
SOLENOID 2 339 303 222
PARTS KIT 1 007 010 079

[Oldiebut goodie]

Yours may be one of these!

OE NUMBERS
BOSCH
0 001 210 213
0 001 212 211
0 001 212 212
0 001 212 214
0 001 212 402
0 001 212 403
1637
31 65141 14889 3
31 65141 79392 5
DELCO REMY
DRS 6370
HC-PARTS
CS 531
HELLA
8EA 726 171-001
LUCAS ELECTRICAL
LRS 1019
LRS01019
MAGNETI MARELLI
943251227
MSR 660
VALEO
455 619
455 630
VW
003 911 023 C
003 911 023 CX
003 911 023 D
003 911 023 DX
003 911 023 E
003 911 023 EX
BCR 911 023 A

[jpennington]

An update on my starter problem:
I ran out of time to source a solenoid, so bought a new starter from GSF to carry as a spare and set off for France.
Sure enough the intermittent failure to start became permanent halfway up a mountain north of Nice. Managed to bump start and ended up fitting the new starter in a supermarket car park in Nice on a very hot night at 10pm.
Fortunate indeed that these starters are so easy to access.

I've now stripped down the dead starter to have a good look. The brushes and commutator are in excellent condition, as are the copper braids. This is as you would expect after only 4 years.
The steel parts inside the motor were very rusty - probably the result of a 6 hour drive up the M6 in torrential rain a few months ago.
Manually operating the solenoid confirmed the intermittent contacts - mostly open circuit, occasionally around 20 ohms.
The solenoid body looks a lot more than 4 years old - marked Bosch Spain. The pinion assembly is marked South Africa. The motor body has VAG and Bosch stamps and several numeric codes, some of which appear to have been ground off.
I conclude that this Hella premium 're-manufactured' unit is assembled from a collection of used parts from various sources. I have sourced a new solenoid, hopefully this will give me a spare starter which will be good for several years.

The new unit from GSF is interesting. it is new (not recon) from JP Group in Denmark. It is lighter than the original and has a slimmer body. I wonder if it uses permanent magnets for the stator. Certainly it spins the engine significantly faster than I remember any of the previous starters doing. Gets up to 1200 rpm!
I look forward to seeing how long it lasts - and I will carry the spare just in case!

jp

[Oldiebut goodie]

That solenoid reads like it is crusty contacts, I wonder if there was excessive sparking across them for some reason?

[CovKid]

Must admit, 25 years ago I'd have stripped and rebuilt any motor then over the years I tended to buy good replacements but with so many manufacturers now cutting corners, I've gone back to rebuilding them myself. Seems to be the only way to go. At least you know its done right.

Sadly, even a gleaming rebuilt unit off the shelf can develop problems, particularly when the method of construction is pee poor. With some places charging £300 or so for one, I tend to grit my teeth, get stuck in and perhaps spend £40 (sometimes just a tenner) to sort it out properly. Dirty job, but heck - £300? No way is a starter worth that just to keep my hands clean. Its this modern trend where supply chains only want to sell 'units' - sucks really.

I don't like to buy all my parts from one place. Its good to find local expertise which is still around if you look. Anyone can click 'buy now'.

[jpennington]

Having nothing better to do this afternoon, I cut the old solenoid open to look at the contacts:



Contacts don't look crusty. It looks more like corrosion than erosion.
Seems as if water got in somehow and the copper contact pads oxidised.

But how did it get wet? Surely not just driving in heavy rain. I do not recall driving through any fords, nor parking in a river.

jp

[silverbullet]

Arcing is what oxidizes the contacts. Starts as a small patch and gets worse, the serrated face of the contact is to help "cut" through the oxide in service.

[Oldiebut goodie]

Looks like a combination of arcing and corrosion.
Easy to get moisture in. Air inside gets heated either from use or from heat of engine. Air is forced out due to expansion then gets drawn back in as everything cools. If the air outside is moist it will condense inside in certain conditions. Voila, corrosion begins. I have the same scenario with the starter in my boat but it forms a thin rust coating on the shaft usually which causes sticking.

[ghost123uk]

The new unit from GSF is interesting. it is new (not recon) from JP Group in Denmark. It is lighter than the original and has a slimmer body. I wonder if it uses permanent magnets for the stator. Certainly it spins the engine significantly faster than I remember any of the previous starters doing. Gets up to 1200 rpm!

Perhaps it is one of these new generation samarium cobalt magnet jobbies? How much was it?

[jpennington]

OK, I understand the condensation process. What might cause arcing? Ignition switch was a bit poor - slightly resistive in the start position; so I replaced it.
Maybe poor switch meant less current into the solenoid, hence less force on the contacts?

Price from GSF was £126 (discount weekend) including £25 deposit for old starter (which in this case I shall not return).
I have seen the same unit on the internet below £100 from some sources. If reliable - seems like a good deal.

jp

[bigherb]

What might cause arcing? Ignition switch was a bit poor - slightly resistive in the start position; so I replaced it.
Maybe poor switch meant less current into the solenoid, hence less force on the contacts?

Yes that's why fitting a starter relay helps give it more punch.