Head Light type

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Head Light type

Postby Fully Loaded Cali' » 25 Jan 2015, 13:57

Currently restoring my '84 westy and will be fitting new headlamps as mine are stone chipped. I have some spare lamps, but these have a metal deflector inside and take a different bulb, other than that they have identical frames and lenses. Would these be off an earlier van?
My original lights gave out excellent lighting, would these other type give the same performance?
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Re: Head Light type

Postby CJH » 25 Jan 2015, 14:22

There was some discussion about this in another thread, from this post onwards. You can fit the newer bulbs into those older style headlights, and the consensus seemed to be that you could remove the metal shield, although you may not need to.
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Re: Head Light type

Postby California Dreamin » 25 Jan 2015, 17:49

Sounds like you have Old and new styles of lamp.
Old type which took.....410 round Tungsten bulbs (these gave a weak yellowish beam and are considered inferior to the. later type)
New type, stamped H4 on the lamp glass (give a whiter and much brighter light) fitted with more modern Halogen H4 bulbs)
This is what you really want...
However, it is possible to fit old style lamps and 'conversion' bulbs...these are an improvement over old tungsten bulb s but not as good as a proper H4 units.

Martin
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Re: Head Light type

Postby CJH » 25 Jan 2015, 18:14

California Dreamin wrote:However, it is possible to fit old style lamps and 'conversion' bulbs...these are an improvement over old tungsten bulb s but not as good as a proper H4 units.

Martin


Martin

What do you mean by 'conversion' bulbs? Before I swapped my headlights I had standard H4 bulbs in the old style units - they fitted fine. In that thread I linked to above Itchyfeet reported the same I think. And do you mean that it's the conversion bulbs themselves that aren't as good, or is it perhaps the shields inside the old style units that compromise the effectiveness of the bulbs?
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Re: Head Light type

Postby California Dreamin » 25 Jan 2015, 18:42

Old style tungsten 410 bulbs had an almost round base with an indent to ensure correct orientation. When the newer H4 lamps were introduced the bulb mount was quite different. 3 legs, one wide and two narrow, again for correct orientation.
Like this:
Old style 40/45 watt tungsten 410 bulb P45T mount
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-RING-RU41 ... 35c4fd0426


Bulb manufacturers, recognising that users with tungsten lamps would want the extra brightness and whiter light given by halogen bulbs so produced 'conversion' bulbs ... basically a Halogen glass envelope attached to the older style round base....like this

Conversion bulb: old 410 base with halogen envelope ..more powerful 55/60 watt
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEADLAMP-BULB ... 3cc96304f5

There was also a 'conversion ring' available that could be inserted into the old lamps mount to accept the newer 3 legged H4 bulbs.
Martin
Last edited by California Dreamin on 25 Jan 2015, 19:20, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Head Light type

Postby CJH » 25 Jan 2015, 18:52

Ah, ok. Nevertheless, the newer style bulb does fit the old style headlight, and it doesn't take much to get it oriented correctly.

But if it's only the mount that's different, then perhaps the poorer performance you mentioned is indeed down to the metal shield inside the older style units after all.
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Re: Head Light type

Postby California Dreamin » 25 Jan 2015, 18:55

CJH wrote:Ah, ok. Nevertheless, the newer style bulb does fit the old style headlight, and it doesn't take much to get it oriented correctly.

But if it's only the mount that's different, then perhaps the poorer performance you mentioned is indeed down to the metal shield inside the older style units after all.


A H4 bulb doesn't fit into a Tungston 410 mount.......unless it had a conversion ring fitted.

And in any case the older lamp design didn't get the best from the newer H4 bulb design.....the pattern and intensity of light wasn't as good as that from a true H4 stamped lamp.

I do remember the shield but I can't remember why it was fitted and the context in terms of which version had it...like you say eairly.

I've added a couple of links to the previous post showing the bulb and base types and their differences.

Unless I'm missing something here and VW altered the mount for H4 fitment jbecause they had a big load of old units and wanted a solution. That solution would have been along the lines I spoke about earlier...a conversion ring to enable H4 bulb fitment.....its all making my brain hurst.



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Re: Head Light type

Postby CJH » 25 Jan 2015, 19:12

California Dreamin wrote:A H4 bulb doesn't fit into a Tungston 410 mount.......unless it had a conversion ring fitted.


It does too! :D
This is itchyfeet's photo, but I've just double checked with my own old style lamp and a newer style H4 bulb - it's exactly as itchyfeet's photo. This is in a headlight that takes the old style bulbs - ok, it's not such a foolproof fit, bit it does fit.

Image
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Re: Head Light type

Postby California Dreamin » 25 Jan 2015, 19:25

Chris...what does that prove...either its a 'conversion style bulb' or a H4 lamp...the picture doesn't show the mount.

Are we saying that T25's never used 410 bulbs with the old round P45T mount?

This could be a revelation but my memory and many posts on here say that early T25's did use old 40/45 Tungsten 410 bulbs....I am very happy to be proved wrong on this of course..

The revelation might be infact, finding out that VW/Hella produced a Hybrid lamp? old style lens (without the H4 stamp) but with a short production run of H4 3 prong mountings? entirely possible but a new one on me.
Or it could be that the very first H4 lamps simply didn't have H4 stamped on the glass?

Martin
Last edited by California Dreamin on 25 Jan 2015, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Head Light type

Postby California Dreamin » 25 Jan 2015, 19:32

Old mount P45T 410 40/45 watt tungsten bulb
New mount P43t H4 55/60 watt Halogen bulb

So is it an old style lamp with a P43t mount? (perhaps Hella wanting to use up all the old lamps and fitting them with the newer mount) or an early H4 lamp that simply didn't have H4 moulded into the glass? lol


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Re: Head Light type

Postby CovKid » 25 Jan 2015, 20:17

Hmmm, I see whats going on. In this pic bulb is being held in place by the lugs that originally held the retaining spring for the correct shaped H4 bulbs. I'd say thats more fluke than anything - it wasn't designed to hold those bulbs at all. I can't see how they'd be very secure like that either.

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Re: Head Light type

Postby CJH » 25 Jan 2015, 20:23

Martin

I don't know the history - maybe you can identify what's what from itchy's other photo:

Image

I was going to take more photos of mine, but I think itchy's shows everything very clearly. It shows the old style headlamp, with the original bulb on the left and the newer style H4 bulb on the right. The H4 bulb drops into the hole in the headlamp, and is then held in place by the gold coloured ring in the other photo. Yes, the H4 lamp can rotate freely within the headlamp hole, but it's not difficult to get it oriented properly before tightening the gold coloured ring.
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Re: Head Light type

Postby CJH » 25 Jan 2015, 20:26

CovKid wrote:Hmmm, I see whats going on. In this pic bulb is being held in place by the lugs that originally held the retaining spring for the correct shaped H4 bulbs. I'd say thats more fluke than anything - it wasn't designed to hold those bulbs at all. I can't see how they'd be very secure like that either.


The gold coloured ring is what holds the old style bulb in place, and it works just as well with the new style bulb. With a bit of force you can rotate the newer style bulb even with the ring in place, but it's pretty secure.
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Re: Head Light type

Postby CovKid » 25 Jan 2015, 20:34

What gold coloured ring? All I see is the base of the bulb turned to locate in the spring lugs. Some headlamps had spring retaining lugs exactly like that, but thats all they were, spring retaining lugs. They are not bulb locators. The fact that you can get the bulbs to fit using those has nothing to do with a choice of bulb types.

Actually, perhaps a more pertinent question would be why would you be messing about with new bulbs in those old rusty headlights. :D
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Re: Head Light type

Postby California Dreamin » 25 Jan 2015, 20:39

CJH wrote:Martin

I don't know the history - maybe you can identify what's what from itchy's other photo:

Image

I was going to take more photos of mine, but I think itchy's shows everything very clearly. It shows the old style headlamp, with the original bulb on the left and the newer style H4 bulb on the right. The H4 bulb drops into the hole in the headlamp, and is then held in place by the gold coloured ring in the other photo. Yes, the H4 lamp can rotate freely within the headlamp hole, but it's not difficult to get it oriented properly before tightening the gold coloured ring.


The bulb seen on the left is as I said, a conversion style bulb (an old P45T round base but with a Halogen glass envelope)
Not a standard H4 bulb with P43t base.
If you can get a modern H4 P43t bulb to sit in there and fasten down I doubt very much that the elements are accurately positioned within the reflector. Basically...just lodged in and not as intended...better to stick with the round based conversion bulbs.....
So no surprises..Old style lamp with conversion bulbs...anything else is a bodge. Lol
Martin
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