Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?

[Oldiebut goodie]

Gates Barricade is rated for 100% ethanol - it is R14.

[Oldiebut goodie]

You are reading it incorrectly - it states that permeation rates for hoses that are not R14 may be higher than the rate of permeation through R14. I can see how you have misread it though.

"Hose which may be supplied either coupled or uncoupled for use with gasoline, diesel fuel, lubrication oil, or the vapor
present in either the fuel system or in the crankcase of internal combustion engines in small engine applications.
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."

[clift_d]

You are reading it incorrectly - it states that permeation rates for hoses that are not R14 may be higher than the rate of permeation through R14. I can see how you have misread it though.

"Hose which may be supplied either coupled or uncoupled for use with gasoline, diesel fuel, lubrication oil, or the vapor
present in either the fuel system or in the crankcase of internal combustion engines in small engine applications.
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."

I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure I've got it right. That excerpt comes from a section headed: 4.10 Low Permeation, Low Pressure Coupled and Uncoupled Synthetic Rubber Tube and Cover Hose for Small Engines (SAE 30R14), and essentially says that exposure of R14 hose to higher concentrations of ethanol than 5% will give higher permeation rates than listed for the R14 standard.

Gates Barricade is rated for 100% ethanol - it is R14.

The Gates Barricade hose is 100% ethanol resistant and as a result exceeds the performance for SAEJ30R14, but I don't think the R14 spec requires it to be 100% ethanol resistant.

[Oldiebut goodie]

I've quoted the piece above. You can only read it one way!
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."

[Oldiebut goodie]

Just looked at my Gates R14 hose - rating is <15g/sq.m. per day. R11/12 can be up to 25g/sq.m. per day for type A, 26 - 50g/sq.m per day for type B and for type C 51 - 100g/sq.m.per day.
That is resistant in my book! It is why I went to R14 as i found that some of Webastos own hose was deteriorating when I was testing with petrol.

Fuel reference types:

Fuel Type Composition by Volume %
Reference Fuel A Isooctane 100%
Reference Fuel B Isooctane 70% + Toluene 30%
Reference Fuel C Isooctane 50% + Toluene 50%
Reference Fuel D Isooctane 60% + Toluene 40%
Reference Fuel E Toluene 100%
Reference Fuel F Diesel Fuel, Grade No. 2 100% (See ASTM D 975 for specification)
Reference Fuel G Fuel D 85% + anhydrous denatured ethanol 15%
Reference Fuel H Fuel C 85% + anhydrous denatured ethanol 15%
Reference Fuel I Fuel C 85% + anhydrous methanol 15%
Reference Fuel K Fuel C 15% + anhydrous methanol 85%

You have twisted this quote around so that it reads completely about face: (You have added " exposure of R14 hose" making nonsensical reading! )

"and essentially says that exposure of R14 hose to higher concentrations of ethanol than 5% will give higher permeation rates than listed for the R14 standard."
Your link for Gates Barricade is for injection hose also - we are talking about carburettor here so it is a different hose.

[Ian Hulley]

Ok, check engine bay fuel hose every time you open the lid ... both visual and by feel ... replace with the Brickwerks hose EVERY 12 months as part of your pre-MOT service regime.

Fuel hoses should be complete (no filters in the engine bay) and NEVER use the nice shiny braided fuel hose as this leaks out of sight and if you are unlucky the first you'll know of this is when the flames come out of the vents.

Try arguing with that ^^

[937carrera]

replace with the Brickwerks hose EVERY 12 months as part of your pre-MOT service regime.

Try arguing with that ^^

Easy..... if you are using the Brickwerks hose (good for 100% ethanol/biodiesel) it doesn't need replacing as though it was naff product

https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/brickwerks ... ssurances/

I don't have an intrinsic objection to metal pipes in the engine bay, after all that's what K-Ket systems have and they run at 3-5 bar pressure. Copper might work harden more quickly than aluminium or cunifer, but in practice it's unlikely to happen as the pipes will be jointed using flexible hose.... which is what K-Jet sytems have and the metal pipes are not clamped down firmly.

[Oldiebut goodie]

Read back on steel injector pipes fracturing due to missing clamps on diesel engines, I know that we are on about petrol engines here and low pressure but there are still vibration aspects to be considered IMHO.

[Cobra88]

I'm going to just replace all the rubber hoses with the Brickwerx current stuff
and believe all the info on the blog.

Simon seems to be a real gent as long as you don't Phone him

Rick

[itchyfeet]

I'm going to just replace all the rubber hoses with the Brickwerx current stuff
and believe all the info on the blog.

Simon seems to be a real gent as long as you don't Phone him

Rick

Next go and fit some fuses in the black box for the two unfused engine circuits, the other ( potential) cause of engine fires.
Black Ignition 12V to coil and Red Thermoswitched hearter circuit from stud.

[Cobra88]

Done and earthed Carb body to bellhousing directly

[937carrera]

Read back on steel injector pipes fracturing due to missing clamps on diesel engines, I know that we are on about petrol engines here and low pressure but there are still vibration aspects to be considered IMHO.

I was working on my truck at the end of last year, Cummins 6 cylinder 6 litre, and had to bleed the injector pipes due to a problem with the injector pump. Those steel fuel lines were clamped in place.

And just rethinking, on some K-Jet there are sometimes clamps with rubber dampening sleeves on some of the metal pipes from the metering head to the injectors

[Ian Hulley]

replace with the Brickwerks hose EVERY 12 months as part of your pre-MOT service regime.

Try arguing with that ^^

Easy..... if you are using the Brickwerks hose (good for 100% ethanol/biodiesel) it doesn't need replacing as though it was naff product

Nope, it's not naff mate ... peace of mind for the cost of a bit of hose ... priceless.

Cheers, Ian.