1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Big lumps of metals and spanners. Including servicing and fluids.

Moderators: User administrators, Moderators

Post Reply
ukgoalie32
Registered user
Posts: 28
Joined: 14 May 2018, 20:50
80-90 Mem No: 16612
Location: Birmingham

1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by ukgoalie32 »

Hi all,

I'm lucky to be allowed to store my van in the in-laws' barn over the winter. I then just give it a run each time we pop over (being able to take the van out for a run makes it more bearable :wink: ).

We haven't been over for what must be at least eight weeks so went in to start her up yesterday and found the battery to be dead. So, after being charged up over night I gave it another go today. The starter is turning well but it seems to be just not quite firing, but very close. In trying for fifteen minutes or so I managed to run the battery down again so it's gone back on charge. Could it be that the fuel has gone stale?

I've had a new set of plugs on the side in the garage since the summer and hadn't gotten around to fitting, so after gapping them to 0.7mm (pretty sure that's right for these: https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/spark-plug.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) I fitted them today so that once the battery is fully charged again, at least I know that the plugs are nice and fresh to give myself a fighting chance of getting it running.

Having taken the old plugs out, I'm conscious that they can tell me a lot about the condition of the engine, but I am no expert. Hence, would really appreciate your thoughts on the photos below.

Cylinder 1:
Image

Cylinder 2:
Image

Cylinder 3 (nervous about this one as it has deposits on the side electrode):
Image

Cylinder 4:
Image

Engine is a 1.9 DG. I've kept the plugs and can take any necessary additional photos.

I've thought that the engine has smelt as though it is running a bit rich this summer. They don't appear overly deposited with carbon, but I'm happy to be advised otherwise.

Cheers,

Ben
1987 Caravelle GL 1.9 DG with Brosol Carb

User avatar
itchyfeet
Registered user
Posts: 12427
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 17:24
80-90 Mem No: 12733
Location: South Hampshire

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by itchyfeet »

look fine to me the one with deposits could that be rust? that would happen with valve open when stopped.

Fuel will be fine, sometimes water can get in to it through degraded filler neck but if stored in a barn this would have had to have happened last trip and unlikely your problem.

Typical for fuel to drain down and pump struggles to bring it back up so charge battery and before starting take the top off the carb and chuck a table spoon of petrol down, if it fires you know it's a fuel starvation problem, keep going with another tablespoon and try again.

if it does not fire at all then come back and you will need to do some ignition checks

Battery may need replacing now, it may not hold charge well again, must leave it disconnected or on trickle charge.
1988 DG WBX LPG Tin Top
1989 DJ digijet WBX Holdsworth Villa 3 Pop Top
itchylinks

ukgoalie32
Registered user
Posts: 28
Joined: 14 May 2018, 20:50
80-90 Mem No: 16612
Location: Birmingham

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by ukgoalie32 »

Thanks for the assistance itchyfeet. :ok Comforting to hear that there’s nothing obviously untoward. I hadn’t thought of the potential for corrosion due to the exhaust valve being open. Given the time for which the van’s been left without having been turned over and the weather it would seem sensible. I’ll have another look at the plug to check that it’s corrosion.

Am I correct in thinking that these plugs (https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/spark-plug.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) should be gapped to 0.7mm?

I charged the battery and left it overnight to ‘settle’ before testing. Multimeter reads 12.5V. Marginally below the standard 12.6V which I read as being produced by a ‘healthy’ battery. Any thoughts on whether to buy a new battery? From turning the van over, the starter seems to be turning over well. It therefore feels as though it’s an ignition issue as opposed to lack of power at the starter, but happy to be informed otherwise.

So, I tried a good teaspoonful of fuel into the carb as shown below (generic photo and not a photo of my actual carb). Upon turning the key it was then very close to firing and a big improvement on the previous “nur nur nur” in trying to turn over. Tried more fuel and once again, it came very close but didn’t quite start. Could it be that it needs a few more goes of spoonful of fuel and try to start?

I also tried a spray of cold start into the carb as shown below. Same thing as with the fuel only, albeit with marginal improvement.

Image

It may be worth noting that the choke plate on my carb is effectively closed (horizontal) as opposed to fully open in the image above.

Battery is now back on charge to have another go once I’ve had chance to have more of a think about it. I did, however, check a few items of the ignition system whilst I had some spare time. I checked the resistance of the king lead and HT leads and they came in at 2 Ohms and 6 Ohms respectively as per spec, so no issues there. Also checked the initiation coil as per the blog post on this page https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/brickwerks-blog/page/17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (towards the bottom of the page). The coil is a late green label. The resistance of the secondary circuit came in pretty much spot on at 3.0 Ohms. However, the primary circuit came it at 1.6 Ohms i.e. double the upper limit. I’m going to check this again, but may put a new coil in, even if that isn’t the cause of the non-starting problems I’m now seeing.

One of the things that I’m struggling to understand is that the van had no starting issues over the spring (bought in May), summer or early Autumn and nothing has changed since (other than the plugs and weather of course!)

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Cheers

Ben
1987 Caravelle GL 1.9 DG with Brosol Carb

User avatar
itchyfeet
Registered user
Posts: 12427
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 17:24
80-90 Mem No: 12733
Location: South Hampshire

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by itchyfeet »

Batt sounds fine

Plug gap depends on coil grey label is 0.8mm, green is 1mm but this isn't problem.

yes check the coil again


yes try some more fuel in the square hole.

try opening open choke flap by pressing here

ImageP1080243 by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
1988 DG WBX LPG Tin Top
1989 DJ digijet WBX Holdsworth Villa 3 Pop Top
itchylinks

ukgoalie32
Registered user
Posts: 28
Joined: 14 May 2018, 20:50
80-90 Mem No: 16612
Location: Birmingham

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by ukgoalie32 »

Thanks itchyfeet. Will do a re check on the coil and order a replacement if needed.

Fuel definitely into the square hole? I thought it was meant to be into the round hole as per diagram in my previous post.

Will try opening the choke flap.

Cheers,

Ben
1987 Caravelle GL 1.9 DG with Brosol Carb

User avatar
tobydog
Registered user
Posts: 1378
Joined: 07 Mar 2009, 21:03
80-90 Mem No: 6484
Location: Near Saarfend, Essex

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by tobydog »

Have you tried spraying cold/easy start into the carb whilst cranking the engine?
Knowledge is power
1970 CU

User avatar
itchyfeet
Registered user
Posts: 12427
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 17:24
80-90 Mem No: 12733
Location: South Hampshire

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by itchyfeet »

ukgoalie32 wrote:
Fuel definitely into the square hole? I thought it was meant to be into the round hole as per diagram in my previous post.


Ben

round hole is second venturi which only opens under vacuum at load, so it's closed always at idle/ stationary vehicle, fuel will trickle through though but the square hole with the choke flap does all the work at idle / stationary vehicle.

open the choke and get somebody to pump the accelerator while you look with a torch , you should see a squirt of fuel.
1988 DG WBX LPG Tin Top
1989 DJ digijet WBX Holdsworth Villa 3 Pop Top
itchylinks

300CE
Registered user
Posts: 2531
Joined: 16 Aug 2012, 13:05
80-90 Mem No: 12017
Location: Sidcup, Kent

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by 300CE »

Also, how much fuel do you have showing on the gauge - if it’s really low I’d be inclined to put a spare can’s worth back in. Also take off the dizzy cap and check inside for condensation, although I’d change the cap and the rotor arm if it was last changed a while ago.
'86 DG, Weber Carb

ukgoalie32
Registered user
Posts: 28
Joined: 14 May 2018, 20:50
80-90 Mem No: 16612
Location: Birmingham

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by ukgoalie32 »

Had some time on this yesterday and am still having trouble.

300CE- I have about a ¼ tank left. I’ll add some fresh when I return to the van. Checked the dizzy cap and all’s looking fine.

I’ve looked to determine whether we are looking at an electrical issue, or fuel supply. Despite the abovementioned out of specification resistance of the primary circuit on the coil, I am getting a good spark when I take a plug out and earth against the engine block whilst turning the engine over. I’ll order a new coil from brickwerks as soon as they’re back in stock regardless.

So, I’m now suspecting fuel supply…

Having had a look down the square hole whilst turning over no fuel is being supplied. Having taken the supply pipe from the fuel pump to the carb off it is completely dry, consistent with the lack of fuel in the carb. I’ve checked for blockages in this pipe and it’s fine. However, when taking the fuel supply pipe off of the pump, it contains fuel. Hence, looks like we’re getting fuel to the pump (or fuel was supplied to the pump when it was parked up at least), but it’s then not being pumped to the carb.

I’m inclined to buy a new, top quality Pierburg pump. However, at £76 new I’d like to try and test the existing pump and confirm it’s a “dudd’n” first. Having had a look around the forum I haven’t found a description of this being down but would it be possible to set up a test whereby I:

1. Disconnect the pipe connecting the fuel hard line to the pump at the hard line (leaving connected to the pump)
2. Disconnect the fuel pump and remove with the supply pipe connected
3. Submerge the end of the supply pipe in a jerry can of fuel
4. Manually work the pump using the pump pushrod.

If the pump is working I should get fuel out of the outlet, albeit after some time?

I’ve order a new pump stand (in case the existing one breaks), the two gaskets and a fuel pump pushrod in case it’s just the push rod, but wondered whether I could use the above technique to check it’s definitely it’s the pump.

What seems strange is that the pump has suddenly stopped working whilst the van has been laid up. Could it be that the diaphragm has perished during this time? The pump does look old, but is a Pierburg unit i.e. good quality

I should note that prior to removing the fuel lines as discussed above I tried bump starting the van by being towed by a tractor (I did say it gets left in a barn over winter!). I got nothing. The engine turned over but there was no ignition. Hence, I’m confident that the turning over of the engine was sufficient to draw fuel up and into the carb had it been a case of fuel simply slipping back down the line towards the fuel tank, as is commonly cited.

Whilst I’ve got the fuel lines off of the carb I’ll also remove the cone shaped filter in the fuel inlet and give it a clean. I’ve also got a set of fuel lines from Brickwerks, so I’ll change the fuel line between the pump and carb and the flexi line from the pump to the solid pipe.

Any assistance on the thoughts above would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Ben
1987 Caravelle GL 1.9 DG with Brosol Carb

User avatar
a1winchester
Registered user
Posts: 1084
Joined: 30 Jul 2009, 22:09
80-90 Mem No: 7187
Location: Spilsby Lincolnshire

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by a1winchester »

Sorry if this sounds obvious, but are you operating the automatic choke by pressing the throttle pedal to the floor a couple of times before starting?
1990 Autosleeper Trident. Water cooled 1.9L DG + 4 speed manual box

ukgoalie32
Registered user
Posts: 28
Joined: 14 May 2018, 20:50
80-90 Mem No: 16612
Location: Birmingham

Re: 1.9 DG - Spark Plug Condition

Post by ukgoalie32 »

A1winchester - yes, I always do a slow depression of the accelerator and return before starting, after the coolant warning light has stopped flashing. I trust this is the correct sequence?

Nonetheless, in short, I got it running and dare I say, I’m pretty pleased with myself for doing so as a novice!

After suspecting that the fuel pump was not working, I took it off the engine and tried to operate it manually (using the push rod to manually operate the spring loaded lever) with the supply pipe submerged in fuel. I didn’t have any luck with getting fuel to pump through, though my manual operation of the pump left little to be desired. With that, I decided to use the van to do the work and put the pump back on the van, connected the supply pipe and put the pipe to the carb into a jam jar. After turning the van over a few times, I had a plenty of fuel in the jar! I then connected the carb pipe and put a good cup full of fuel into the top of the primary ventrui. After a few tries, it fired up. Ran a but lumpy for 30 seconds or so, but then settled down.

So, I am now wondering whether the fuel pump (original to the van I think) had become stuck and my efforts to manually operate it have freed it off. I’m now in a quandary as to buy a new pump or not. I’m inclined to see how I go, but know that I’ll kick myself if I end up coming home on the back of a recovery truck if it fails. They are £76 from brickwerks + postage, but I did see this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PIERBURG-Fue ... 1438.l2649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems to be the same pump?

Has anyone else experienced a sticky fuel pump? I was tempted to try using a bottle of redex as “it can’t do any harm” and may help lubricate the pump, but am aware of the general lack of consensus on here as to its effectiveness.

Nonetheless, removing the fuel pump has shown the push rod to be squared off due to wear, so this will be replaced as a matter of course when I next get chance to have a tinker with the van. I’ve also bought a new pump stand, but wasn’t able to pull the old one out by hand. Are these generally stuck in place?

I’ve also cleaned the cone shaped filter on the inlet to the carb, although it was very clean, consistent with the carb being new (Brosol) a few years back.

In the meantime, I’m awaiting a replacement coil to come back into stock at brickwerks and will order one as soon as I get a notification.
1987 Caravelle GL 1.9 DG with Brosol Carb

Post Reply