White Smoke...

[Ciaraneng]

Hi all. A T25 and forum newbie here so bear with me. I have had a 1983 High Top with a 1.9 Petrol DG engine for the past 2 months. I have replaced a couple of perished coolant hoses, a thermostat and oil filter but other than a couple of burst hoses and air locks (lots of bleeding) it's been running well....last this weekend. Now when it starts I get a big cloud of white smoke from the exhaust. It seems to clear up after a few hundred yards but I'm pretty concerned it might be a head gasket. The last time I went for a short spin header tank had emptied when I checked but the reservoir was still full. Temperature and power were fine. I refilled the header tank but have not started it since for fear of warping the head.

Is there a way to confirm that it's the head gasket? Is there any other way that coolant could be getting to the exhaust or anything else that could explain the white smoke and the drop in the header tank. I have browsed the forum and it seems that generally white smoke=head gasket. It's not from overfilling the oil.

Any advice would be welcome. Thanks in advance;

Ciaran

[937carrera]

Top the coolant up, spark plugs out and crank her over. Water coming out of the spark plug holes means head gasket, probably.

You won't warp the heads when the engine is cool, most serious risk is hydraulic lock, so if all is dry after the above test you can put the plugs back and start her up again. Keep an eye on the water levels though. Excessive white smoke (more than cold condensation) would also indicate likely HG issue.

[Ciaraneng]

Great, thanks. Will try that.

[itchyfeet]

does it do it hot and cold?

When I had a cracked head I got a cloud of white smoke on hot starting as coolant was leaking into exhaust port

[Ciaraneng]

To answer your question Itchyfeet, it just did it on starting cold.

UPDATE: I followed 937carrera's advice and lo and behold, I found a loose spark. It was really just sitting in there and barely hand tight. I took out all the spark plugs and cranked her over. Thankfully there was no sign of water coming out of the spark plug holes. I took the cap off the breather housing (for the first time) and there was some white gunk on it which had me very worried. I replaced the oil and filter just last week and there was no sign of water in the old oil. Also there was no white residue in the new oil on the dipstick etc. and I dropped a few drops into the black filler cap for contrast to make sure. It looked 100% clear so I'm hoping the residue on the breather housing cap is from condensation.

Anyway, I torqued up the spark plugs and started her up and THE WHITE SMOKE HAD PRETTY MUCH DISAPPEARED.
Or at least down to normal levels for an old engine. I ran it for a good while and everything sounded and looked normal.

Could the loose spark plug account for the white smoke? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's that rather than a head gasket.

I still need to account for the loss of coolant but leaks have wabeen a bit of an ongoing problem since I bought it. Is blocked in tonight but all going well I plan to take it for a short spin tomorrow or the next day and see how it runs.

Is there anything else I should do before I take it for a run? Any other thoughts or advice would be welcome. Thanks for the help so far. It's much appreciated as I'm in a rural area and my mechanic is well out of his comfort zone working on such an old vehicle.

[937carrera]

The mayo in the top could have built up over time. Now you know it is clean you can keep an eye on it. Short journeys are usually the cause.

The loose spark plug & an subsequent absence of smoke makes no sense to me

Maybe it's just starting to leak, and the system needs to be up to pressure & temp before the leak occurs, no choice but to allow the engine to get warm.

Let her warm up on idle and keep an eye on the temperature gauge. Do you know that the coolant level warning light is working correctly ?

Keep an eye out for the white smoke, water levels dropping or the temp gauge showing the engine is overheating. If that happens switch off and allow to cool down

Also look out for a signs of a weep / steam from a coolant pipe - lots of them to look at. That could be the reason for dropping coolant level. Catastrophic loss of coolant = potential big bill

[Ciaraneng]

The mayo in the top could have built up over time. Now you know it is clean you can keep an eye on it. Short journeys are usually the cause.

That's what I'm hoping. Cap is clean now so will keep a close eye on it.

The loose spark plug & an subsequent absence of smoke makes no sense to me

For what it's worth, it makes no sense to me either but that's the only thing that I changed. I googled white smoke and loose spark plug and got some hits.

Maybe it's just starting to leak, and the system needs to be up to pressure & temp before the leak occurs, no choice but to allow the engine to get warm.

That's what I'm thinking also. Just an intermittent but small leak. Funny thing is that I only got white smoke on starting.

Let her warm up on idle and keep an eye on the temperature gauge.

I did that this evening. Expansion tank bubbled back into top-up tank. Temperature came up per normal, thermostat opened etc. Had to bleed the radiator a bit but no sign of leaks.

Do you know that the coolant level warning light is working correctly ?

Definitely not working correctly. Just one wire running to it. Will try to find the other in the loom but no idea why it was disconnected.

Keep an eye out for the white smoke, water levels dropping or the temp gauge showing the engine is overheating. If that happens switch off and allow to cool down

Also look out for a signs of a weep / steam from a coolant pipe - lots of them to look at. That could be the reason for dropping coolant level. Catastrophic loss of coolant = potential big bill

Will do on all fronts. Short runs for me until I get a bit more confident with it. Thanks again for the help and advice.

[Ciaraneng]

I got this from the [url=tp://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/Petrol_engines_oil_emulsifying]Wiki:[/url]

head gaskets on the WBX are not like inline engines, the oil and water rarely mix when they do go, most references to head gaskets "going" on these are really water jacket seals going, which result in air locks, which cause over heating, rather than oil and water mixing, and water dumping, or over pressuring, and chucking the water out of the top up bottle or blowing pipes off.

This may explain both the white smoke and the loss of coolant. I'll take it for a short run and keep an eye on temp and coolant.

[Ciaraneng]

FURTHER UPDATE:

I took the van for a good spin with the missus driving this evening. No white smoke when we started or when running but got a bit of a cloud when when we stopped for 10 mins and restarted. We did about 10 miles including about 300m of climbing as a test and had the engine cover off to see what was going on. It ran as well as it has since we bought it with no overheating etc. but there was a constant build-up of 'air' coming back into the expansion tank. I released pressure by unscrewing the cap as it built up. I'm pretty convinced now that there are exhaust fumes getting into the coolant and causing air locks but I might get a coolant CO2 test kit to check for sure.

Other observations: there are a lot of exhaust fumes coming from the breather tower so I'm guessing fumes are blowing past the piston rings. The original air filter has been removed and is replaced with a cheap 'induction kit' (an 80mm plastic hose with a cheap mushroom air filter). The oil breather hose runs to a filter of some sort and there are lots of exhaust fumes coming out when the engine is under pressure. Also, there was more mayonnaise on the breather cover when we got home.

In short, I think I am getting a clearer idea of the condition of the engine in precious our new van.

To be fair, the reason we bought it was for the condition of the body, and the cooking, cabinets, etc. All that is in great nick. The engine condition is a real worry. I'm thinking now that the summer beach spins are over, I need to buy an itchyfeet-style winch and a length of 3x2 and drop it out, strip it down and try to see what's going on with the heads and seals. Having read the horror stories about sheared studs etc. I'm a bit worried about what I will find and what damage I can cause by stripping it but I would rather know than be on tender hooks every time we go for a drive. I can see myself spending many hours browsing these pages and my Haynes manual over the next couple of months...

I've done a bit of work on cars over the years and I'm reasonably mechanically-minded but stripping down an engine is a big step up for me so all ideas and recommendations would be much appreciated.

[937carrera]

OK, so the white smoke after the restart seems to indicate some coolant (under pressure) has found it's way into the combustion chamber when stopped.

Coolant systems do run at pressure, usually about 1 bar, to increase the boiling point of the coolant, so releasing the pressure isn't necessary.

Sounds like the van has a K & N type air filter fitted and instead of a sealed crankcase ventilation system it is venting to atmosphere - very Max Power.

The build up of mayonnaise after such a short period does seem to indicate a fair bit of moisture in the oil, but 10 miles might not be enough time to burn off initial condensation. Clean the mayo out again and then let the van get up to temperature on idle, 15-20 minutes should be fine and then inspect again.

Getting the coolant checked for combustion gases is a sensible next step. It is beginning to look as though you might be doing a rebuild thread... itchyfeets threads are a good read and guide. You should also join the Club, as well as the forum, see http://www.club80-90.co.uk/pages/membershipform.html Compression / leak test would be sensible too

Can you upload photos, they can be a big help ?

[Ciaraneng]

Thanks carrera. I've read up on and submitted a form to join the club.

I tried the 15-20 mins on idle as you suggested. White smoke again on start-up so the loose spark plug fix was a false dawn. Seems to be intermittent. It cleared quite quickly and was clear also when I restarted after the 20 min idle.

fullsizeoutput_349 by Ciaran OConnell, on Flickr
I think I probably have, as you suggest, coolant going into the chamber under pressure when hot. Also, when I rev even when cold I get bubbles in the expansion tank so I think gases are also passing into the jacket when running. Will order a CO2 test kit to confirm. Here's my engine bay:

fullsizeoutput_34c by Ciaran OConnell, on Flickr

And here's my mayo-coated breather exhausting fumes. No additional build -up over the 20 mins so overall it's a bit inconclusive. It may just be the moisture in the chamber going past the rings and contaminating the sump? Hard to say but there doesn't seem to be a big leak (at least not yet...)

Breather Smoking by Ciaran OConnell, on Flickr

And finally, my el-cheapo mushroom air filter and breather hose 'filter'.

Mushroom Wide by Ciaran OConnell, on Flickr IMG_1321 by Ciaran OConnell, on Flickr

I'm busy for the next couple of weeks so will get the CO2 kit on order and see if I can find an original Air Filter housing for a refit job. Will read up on compression tests when I get time but I'm fast coming to the conclusion that a rebuild will be needed. When the time comes, I'll start a thread and post photos so that others can at least learn from my rookie mistakes...

Thanks again for the help.

[937carrera]

I would save the money on the coolant test kit. Don't think you need that with the evidence you have, but a screw in compression tester would be a useful diagnostic tool, it will at least give you some baseline information before you start taking the engine apart. Most people use the Draper one eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Draper-37442 ... 0587846667 but there are now even cheaper ones available from China

Looking at the engine bay, you do have the Max Power type atmospheric breather, as you say no signs of excess mayo build up in the picture.

When you do the rebuild I suggest you go back to standard intake & breather arrangement. You also have an "interesting" arrangement from the header tank. Itchyfeet will probably spot more than me, once he has picked himself off the floor.

I suspect if you do the engine pull now you will have less work to do. The other thing to consider will be are you just going to do the top end or will you split the case and renew bearings. Unless you have more history on the engine it might be worth doing some oil pressure checks to see what sort of condition the bearings could be in.

Have a read of this, http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=165346 Itchyfeet has done lots of testing and mods (links in his signature) and BigBadBob76 has also just done an engine rebuild http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.p ... 9&start=55 including oil pump work.

[Ciaraneng]

Thanks Carrera. Have to step away now but will look into a compression tester next week to get a baseline. Do IO need a tachometer to map the pressures at various revs or is it adequate to just get an idea on idle?

When you do the rebuild I suggest you go back to standard intake & breather arrangement. You also have an "interesting" arrangement from the header tank. Itchyfeet will probably spot more than me, once he has picked himself off the floor.

That sounds interesting/concerning Would like to hear more...

I suspect if you do the engine pull now you will have less work to do. The other thing to consider will be are you just going to do the top end or will you split the case and renew bearings. Unless you have more history on the engine it might be worth doing some oil pressure checks to see what sort of condition the bearings could be in.

Yes, thinking now is the right time to pull the engine. I'm tempted to stay away from the case this time as it's probably pushing too far, too soon, for a novice. Do you mean the oil pump or the crank bearings? I think I have more reading to do but it will have to wait until I am back online next week. Thanks again for all the advice this week.

[937carrera]

Nice easy way to have a nosey at other engine bays. Your carb top doesn't look like a DG one either, normally three nuts

http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=165808

Ideally you will need a tacho to do oil pressure checks, again, ebay is your friend, Chinese ones available for about £15, or just judge engine speed by ear. Oil pump can be done without splitting the case, but if the pressure is low how do you know if it's the pump or worn bearings ?

[Ciaraneng]

Nice easy way to have a nosey at other engine bays. Your carb top doesn't look like a DG one either, normally three nuts

http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=165808

I see what you mean. This one from nesty on that thread looks a bit like mine so it may be original...



Looks like I'm missing a few parts though...

Ideally you will need a tacho to do oil pressure checks, again, ebay is your friend, Chinese ones available for about £15, or just judge engine speed by ear. Oil pump can be done without splitting the case, but if the pressure is low how do you know if it's the pump or worn bearings ?

Good points on all fronts. Just afraid to take on too much for my first strip-down and get stuck... One step at a time I guess...