WBX ignition timing manual setting.
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- itchyfeet
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WBX ignition timing manual setting.
I have written this a few times but can never find it so here it is again.
People ( including me) often fit a WBX and chuck a dizzy in then try to start it thinking the dizzy they put in from their old engine is set the same, often it's not.
The reason is the drive gear has 12 teeth so can mesh with the crank gear in 12 positions
P1030696 by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
it's supposed to be in about here but in reality it could be anywhere and it will still work as long as the dizzy matches.
P1040733 by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
To set the timing manually you need to find TDC ( or better still the timing mark next to it) on compression stroke for No1 cylinder.
No1 is towards the front of vehicle on the right hand side as you stand at the rear looking at the engine.
TDC or timing mark is the U or V shape groove in the crank pulley, find them and mark them with tippex
Next remove the plug from No1 clinder and place your finger in the hole, turn the engine over clockwise with a spanner on the crank pulley bolt, taking all plugs out makes this much easier as the engine turns easier.
As you get to compression stroke on No1 you will feel the pressure, if you are not sure go around again. Two turns of crank for each compression stroke on No1.
Stop when the marks are uppermost AND you feel pressure, now align the V mark exactly with the centre of engine case.
Next follow No 1 plug lead to the cap and mark the distributor body below the cap with a pen or tippex at the exact point the No 1 lead is.
Remove the cap and the rotor arm should be pointing to this mark on the distributor body.
If it's not then slacken the pinch bolt and rotate the distributor body until it does align.
There may be some cases where the vac can hits something, or the leads were never fitted correctly in this case you will have to move the plug leads around on the cap, all the leads need to move so they stay in the same order but are moved in relation to the cap alignment key. You will then need to refit the cap and make a new mark where No1 lead is in relation to the body.
if the gear is in correctly, and the plug leads are on correcty, it should look like this...
Checking timing without strobe by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
Remember when you turn the distributor body you are not turning the rotor arm, that's fixed to the engine, you are turning the body in relation to the arm. The body hold the hall sensor which triggers the spark so by turning the body in relation to the rotor arm you are altering the timing.
When the mark for No 1 plug lead is aligned with rotor arm stop and tighten pinch bolt.
Replace cap and check the order of the spark plug leads is 1432 clockwise.
In this position it should start and then you can set timing with a strobe as described below.......
Turn the engine so you can see the timing marks on the pulley where the aux belt is, there should be a U shape for TDC on one edge of pulley and a V shape about 7mm to the right on the other edge of the pulley for a DG, this is the 5 degrees before top dead centre mark (BTDC) mark both with tippex, a DJ will have the mark double the distance away about 14mm
Then connect your strobe light to plug lead no1 or clamp it on if it's the clamp on type, No1 cylinder is front of van right as you look from the rear.
connect the 12v power to strobe and ground to body, easiest place for 12V is the alternator bolt if it is a late van, if early van may need to get a connection to the stud in the black box.
get the leads away from the belt and pulley
start the engine
allow the choke to come off
remove the vac pipe from dizzy, (revs will drop a little) and point the timing gun at the pulley, you should see the marks, the V should align with centre of engine, that's the edge of the casting above.
if you have a rev counter you should set the idle stop to 900rpm after removing the vac pipe but if not don't worry
if it's out then you need to turn off engine, loosen pinch bolt on dizzy, restart engine and repeat, rotate dizzy until the V mark aligns with centre of engine, use rubber gloves, turn off engine and tighten without moving dizzy.
restart and check
refit vac pipe
Some strobe guns have an adjustable advance, if it has one then make sure it's set to zero or read up how to use it.
People ( including me) often fit a WBX and chuck a dizzy in then try to start it thinking the dizzy they put in from their old engine is set the same, often it's not.
The reason is the drive gear has 12 teeth so can mesh with the crank gear in 12 positions
P1030696 by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
it's supposed to be in about here but in reality it could be anywhere and it will still work as long as the dizzy matches.
P1040733 by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
To set the timing manually you need to find TDC ( or better still the timing mark next to it) on compression stroke for No1 cylinder.
No1 is towards the front of vehicle on the right hand side as you stand at the rear looking at the engine.
TDC or timing mark is the U or V shape groove in the crank pulley, find them and mark them with tippex
Next remove the plug from No1 clinder and place your finger in the hole, turn the engine over clockwise with a spanner on the crank pulley bolt, taking all plugs out makes this much easier as the engine turns easier.
As you get to compression stroke on No1 you will feel the pressure, if you are not sure go around again. Two turns of crank for each compression stroke on No1.
Stop when the marks are uppermost AND you feel pressure, now align the V mark exactly with the centre of engine case.
Next follow No 1 plug lead to the cap and mark the distributor body below the cap with a pen or tippex at the exact point the No 1 lead is.
Remove the cap and the rotor arm should be pointing to this mark on the distributor body.
If it's not then slacken the pinch bolt and rotate the distributor body until it does align.
There may be some cases where the vac can hits something, or the leads were never fitted correctly in this case you will have to move the plug leads around on the cap, all the leads need to move so they stay in the same order but are moved in relation to the cap alignment key. You will then need to refit the cap and make a new mark where No1 lead is in relation to the body.
if the gear is in correctly, and the plug leads are on correcty, it should look like this...
Checking timing without strobe by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
Remember when you turn the distributor body you are not turning the rotor arm, that's fixed to the engine, you are turning the body in relation to the arm. The body hold the hall sensor which triggers the spark so by turning the body in relation to the rotor arm you are altering the timing.
When the mark for No 1 plug lead is aligned with rotor arm stop and tighten pinch bolt.
Replace cap and check the order of the spark plug leads is 1432 clockwise.
In this position it should start and then you can set timing with a strobe as described below.......
Turn the engine so you can see the timing marks on the pulley where the aux belt is, there should be a U shape for TDC on one edge of pulley and a V shape about 7mm to the right on the other edge of the pulley for a DG, this is the 5 degrees before top dead centre mark (BTDC) mark both with tippex, a DJ will have the mark double the distance away about 14mm
Then connect your strobe light to plug lead no1 or clamp it on if it's the clamp on type, No1 cylinder is front of van right as you look from the rear.
connect the 12v power to strobe and ground to body, easiest place for 12V is the alternator bolt if it is a late van, if early van may need to get a connection to the stud in the black box.
get the leads away from the belt and pulley
start the engine
allow the choke to come off
remove the vac pipe from dizzy, (revs will drop a little) and point the timing gun at the pulley, you should see the marks, the V should align with centre of engine, that's the edge of the casting above.
if you have a rev counter you should set the idle stop to 900rpm after removing the vac pipe but if not don't worry
if it's out then you need to turn off engine, loosen pinch bolt on dizzy, restart engine and repeat, rotate dizzy until the V mark aligns with centre of engine, use rubber gloves, turn off engine and tighten without moving dizzy.
restart and check
refit vac pipe
Some strobe guns have an adjustable advance, if it has one then make sure it's set to zero or read up how to use it.
Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Wow dg and DJ pulley marks are différents !
Perfect tuto !
Perfect tuto !
- itchyfeet
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
rony4ws wrote:Wow dg and DJ pulley marks are différents !
Perfect tuto !
no guarantee you have the right pulley either
here is a DG at the back on the engine and a DJ held in front to compare.
P1060746 by Paul_Barr, on Flickr
Last edited by itchyfeet on 27 Feb 2019, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
- Ciaraneng
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Really useful Paul, thanks.
1983 High Top 1.9 Petrol Early DG Engine
- Aidan
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
RE Photo of the pulleys note the 2.1 variants were not the same originally, the MV always runs 5 degrees timing and unleaded fuel 91-95 RON, original DJ ran 10 degrees (as running 4 star) but post the introduction of unleaded fuel replacement VW supplied DJ engines came with new pulleys which were 5 degrees same as MV to run 95 RON unleaded fuel so if you don't know for sure get the protractor out and measure the angle between TDG and timing mark, if you use normal 95 RON fuel in a DJ you may want to remark an original 10 degree pulley at 5 degrees, if you run SuperPlus 98RON you can run 10 degrees, you may favour somewhere in between for optimal compromise fuel choice. If you use LPG on a MV you may wish to advance the timing a little, I run 7-8 degrees which is better for LPG and doesn't cause pinking on petrol, some people run more advance as they run so rarely on petrol.
A little typex (does that still exist ?) or white paint in the timing mark can help with visibility when strobe timing
A little typex (does that still exist ?) or white paint in the timing mark can help with visibility when strobe timing
- itchyfeet
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Aidan wrote:RE Photo of the pulleys note the 2.1 variants were not the same originally,
edited above for accuracy.
- itchyfeet
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
300CE wrote:It’d be wicked if this could be Wiki’d
Nothing gets wiki'd anymore, you have google these days
https://www.google.co.uk/search?ei=9-p2 ... iming+8090" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- 3cylinders
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Mine is 180 degrees out - the previous owner just reversed the plug leads accordingly, but it does make the lead layout a bit messy so I'd love to sort it.
Is it possible to do this engine-in or is the risk of losing the driveshaft thrust washers inside the crankcase on removal and refit too high ?
Is it possible to do this engine-in or is the risk of losing the driveshaft thrust washers inside the crankcase on removal and refit too high ?
1991 1.9 DG Petrol Bus manual transmission
- itchyfeet
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
3cylinders wrote:Mine is 180 degrees out - the previous owner just reversed the plug leads accordingly, but it does make the lead layout a bit messy so I'd love to sort it.
Is it possible to do this engine-in or is the risk of losing the driveshaft thrust washers inside the crankcase on removal and refit too high ?
its risky
Loose a washer and you may well have to strip it down or lose your cam gears
I suspect that happened here....
http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.p ... 5#p8239174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ask yourself why it bothers you?
then go and get on with something useful
- 937carrera
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
3cylinders wrote:Mine is 180 degrees out - the previous owner just reversed the plug leads accordingly, but it does make the lead layout a bit messy so I'd love to sort it.
Is it possible to do this engine-in or is the risk of losing the driveshaft thrust washers inside the crankcase on removal and refit too high ?
I've done it. - using a piece of dowelling suitably shaped so that the soft wood can be tapped into the groove.
You don't need to fully remove the dizzy shaft, just rotate and withdraw until it is free and you can rotate the 180 degrees freely. Full instructions are in the Haynes book for the 412, not sure if they were carried forward into the T25 and I haven't got mine handy.
It all depends how much it's annoying you.
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
- 3cylinders
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Thanks carrera, I'll get hold of a copy and have a think about it
1991 1.9 DG Petrol Bus manual transmission
- 937carrera
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Have you spotted the Pm I sent you this morning 3cylinders ?
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
- 937carrera
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Just checking my message and I see you still haven't read the PM I sent you..... top left for UCP - PM's
Last edited by 937carrera on 11 Mar 2019, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
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Re: WBX ignition timing manual setting.
Thanks for a great write up as always itchyfeet,
Any thoughts on decent timing guns at a reasonable price?
Cheers,
Benn
Any thoughts on decent timing guns at a reasonable price?
Cheers,
Benn
1987 Caravelle GL 1.9 DG with Brosol Carb