WBXOily

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Re: WBXOily

Postby itchyfeet » 27 Nov 2017, 19:35

937carrera wrote:OK, with the concerns you expressed about compression I thought you were looking to replace pistons or barrels and the measurements were going to help you decide how far to go. I didn't want you to junk perfectly functional components.

Have you decided where the oil was coming from yet ?


measurements are
No1 93.95/94.06 =0.11
No2 93.93/94.05 = 0.12
No3 93.88/94.07 = 0.19 ( broken ring)
No4 93.97/94.06 = 0.09

I think 3 of the four are OK with new rings but the one that had broken rings needs a replacement barrel and possibly a piston, need to inspect it further.

Verdict is out with the oil on back on valves, I just don't know if oil coming past rings would collect on valves?

What I do know is what2do over filled the oil once and so some of that build up could be from that one off event.

The rings are clearly worn past their spec so probably explains low compression

it possibly dripped more oil than it burnt, it was reported as only burning on the overrun but that could all have come from the cylinder with broken rings.
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Re: WBXOily

Postby 937carrera » 27 Nov 2017, 19:50

Looking at the photo the build up of oil seems to be on the back of the inlets.

That would tend to suggest oil coming past either the valve stem oil seals or being in the intake air. Blue smoke on the overrun or from cold start is usually valve guide / valve stem oil seal related. However, you had poor / broken rings. This means combustion gases would have gone into the crankcase instead of out of the exhaust valve. This pressurises the crankcase, which causes lots of oil vapour to be vented into the intake system and thus past the intake valves.

Just some thoughts for you - sounds like a full set of rings and new valve stem oil seals should get the problem sorted :?: :?: :?:
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Re: WBXOily

Postby itchyfeet » 27 Nov 2017, 19:54

937carrera wrote:Looking at the photo the build up of oil seems to be on the back of the inlets.

That would tend to suggest oil coming past either the valve stem oil seals or being in the intake air. Blue smoke on the overrun or from cold start is usually valve guide / valve stem oil seal related. However, you had poor / broken rings. This means combustion gases would have gone into the crankcase instead of out of the exhaust valve. This pressurises the crankcase, which causes oil vapour to be vented into the intake system and thus past the intake valves.

Just some thoughts for you - sounds like a full set of rings and new valve stem oil seals should get the problem sorted :?: :?: :?:


no valve seals on a WBX, are there on Aircooled flat4s?

I hadn't thought of pressurising the crankcase, that would push oil past valve guides and also past breather into inlet, good call, thanks.
The valve guides are no more worn than other engines I have worked on which don't have this, I doubt the guide wear is the problem.

We may not find out for years because he may not fit this again in a hurry, it's a spare engine.
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Re: WBXOily

Postby 937carrera » 27 Nov 2017, 19:59

I though there were valve stem oil seals on an Aircooled type 4 engine, but it's been a while since I did one so I could be wrong, I'll check

Looking at your measurements if they are laid out Piston size / Bore size / clearance the it looks to me that number 3 piston is indeed worn, will the barrel clean up in spec with a hone ?
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Re: WBXOily

Postby what2do » 27 Nov 2017, 20:07

937carrera wrote:Looking at the photo the build up of oil seems to be on the back of the inlets.

That would tend to suggest oil coming past either the valve stem oil seals or being in the intake air. Blue smoke on the overrun or from cold start is usually valve guide / valve stem oil seal related. However, you had poor / broken rings. This means combustion gases would have gone into the crankcase instead of out of the exhaust valve. This pressurises the crankcase, which causes lots of oil vapour to be vented into the intake system and thus past the intake valves.

Just some thoughts for you - sounds like a full set of rings and new valve stem oil seals should get the problem sorted :?: :?: :?:



There was blue smoke on the overrun but strangely it was only when the engine was hot. A lot of my journeys were less than 30 minutes and so you wouldn't see any. When hot, I could trundle up and down the motorway and cause the smoke to appear by throttling then taking my foot off the accelerator. I could do this repeatedly with the same result but like I said, only when the engine was hot.
Why would the glass be anything other than half full?

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Re: WBXOily

Postby itchyfeet » 27 Nov 2017, 20:14

937carrera wrote:I though there were valve stem oil seals on an Aircooled type 4 engine, but it's been a while since I did one so I could be wrong, I'll check

Looking at your measurements if they are laid out Piston size / Bore size / clearance the it looks to me that number 3 piston is indeed worn, will the barrel clean up in spec with a hone ?


No3 barrel is scratched from broken rings, it needs replacing really, maybe piston also but I have spares of those, What 2do gave me this old thing also, it's pretty much scrap now as it got wet but hopefully there is a barrel that's salvageable.

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Re: WBXOily

Postby itchyfeet » 27 Nov 2017, 20:15

what2do wrote:

There was blue smoke on the overrun but strangely it was only when the engine was hot. A lot of my journeys were less than 30 minutes and so you wouldn't see any. When hot, I could trundle up and down the motorway and cause the smoke to appear by throttling then taking my foot off the accelerator. I could do this repeatedly with the same result but like I said, only when the engine was hot.


it has to burn a lot for you to see it from the drivers seat in your mirror, I bet the people behind could smell it.
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Re: WBXOily

Postby 937carrera » 27 Nov 2017, 20:27

I thought wrong, :oops: no valve stem oil seals on the Aircooled type 4, checked for the 412, which I have built before and the CU engine, which I am going to be doing.

With the description from what2do I would definitely be checking valve guides and valve stem diameter

Ah, so you have a third, 4th, 5th ?? spare engine. If that's where the spares are coming from I would use the matched piston & barrel set. Theoretically you should also make sure they are the same size as the other three, but you can probably turn a blind eye to that
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Re: WBXOily

Postby itchyfeet » 27 Nov 2017, 20:49

937carrera wrote:I thought wrong, :oops: no valve stem oil seals on the Aircooled type 4, checked for the 412, which I have built before and the CU engine, which I am going to be doing.

With the description from what2do I would definitely be checking valve guides and valve stem diameter

Ah, so you have a third, 4th, 5th ?? spare engine. If that's where the spares are coming from I would use the matched piston & barrel set. Theoretically you should also make sure they are the same size as the other three, but you can probably turn a blind eye to that


I have a few other engines too in bits, if I swap a piston I would pick a matched weight of course, it's not a rebuild just getting it back on the road and keeping it in wear limits.

There is only the measurement shown above for valve stems, and as I said seen worse with no oil burning.
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Re: WBXOily

Postby what2do » 27 Nov 2017, 22:01

itchyfeet wrote:
what2do wrote:

There was blue smoke on the overrun but strangely it was only when the engine was hot. A lot of my journeys were less than 30 minutes and so you wouldn't see any. When hot, I could trundle up and down the motorway and cause the smoke to appear by throttling then taking my foot off the accelerator. I could do this repeatedly with the same result but like I said, only when the engine was hot.


it has to burn a lot for you to see it from the drivers seat in your mirror, I bet the people behind could smell it.



Not at all, a little bit of hot oil goes a long way. It would merely be a short puff of smoke and then it was clear again. I've always been led to believe overrun smoke is due to it getting past the valves, it'll be interesting to hear what you find.
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Re: WBXOily

Postby Ian Hulley » 27 Nov 2017, 22:26

To be fair Paul Crosland filters were very good quality, I don't use them in The Bus but they aren't Cooper or 'Unipart' type cr@p.

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Re: WBXOily

Postby itchyfeet » 28 Nov 2017, 07:40

Ian Hulley wrote:To be fair Paul Crosland filters were very good quality, I don't use them in The Bus but they aren't Cooper or 'Unipart' type cr@p.

Ian


I was only pulling his leg, he didn't bite :lol:
Not much cheaper may a well use Bosch.
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Re: WBXOily

Postby itchyfeet » 28 Nov 2017, 07:49

what2do wrote:
. I've always been led to believe overrun smoke is due to it getting past the valves, it'll be interesting to hear what you find.


Well Its stripped, I don't think there is anymore to find, the evidence gas been laid before you, you can draw your own conclusion?


Personally I think 937carerra has got it, pressurised sump from cracked piston rings, sump is only vented through breather tower so oil vapour pushed/drawn through carb, also may be forced past valve guiies and even worn rings with excessive gaps on other cylinders.

also if you have a cracked compression ring you are more likely to draw oil in that cylinder on the overrun.
The barrel is scored so we didn't crack them on removal.
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Re: WBXOily

Postby what2do » 28 Nov 2017, 14:41

itchyfeet wrote:
Ian Hulley wrote:To be fair Paul Crosland filters were very good quality, I don't use them in The Bus but they aren't Cooper or 'Unipart' type cr@p.

Ian


I was only pulling his leg, he didn't bite :lol:
Not much cheaper may a well use Bosch.




I didn't bite because I'm not sure why there isn't a Bosch on there to be honest, they normally are - I think!
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Re: WBXOily

Postby 937carrera » 28 Nov 2017, 17:47

This page has lots of tech data on the DJ engine, most of which will apply to all wbx engines

http://www.vanagonauts.com/2.1L-Vanagon-Specs234.htm

Thought you might find it useful if you don't already have all the details. I think you already checked the valve stems, did you check the guides as well, spec is in the link ?
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