1.9 AFN TDI silly question

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JimmysBob
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1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

Hello sorry if this has been covered before but i want to ask the groups collective knowledge

so the plan is to spend the next 12 months collecting parts & engine rebuilding a 1.9TDi AFN so i can put this in my bus, i have a full list of cars that the AFN is in but i wanted to ask, are there any KEY KEY differences that i should look out for between say a longitudinal AFN from a VW Passat / Seat Alhambra or a transverse from a Seat Toledo etc?? do they all have the same engine mount pattern? aux belt set up?, are there any engines you SHOULD NOT use?

What is the common AFN that is used? (ive seen quite a few are using an AFN but cant always find what donor they used etc)

i plan to purchase a donor car first and foremost so i can get an idea of the state of the engine etc but ive fallen at a very basic hurdle, any advice would be welcome before i go trawling through scrappy's to see what the differences are

i have a 1.7 KY at the moment so plan to use as much off this as possible and source the rest from a 1.6JX

Thanks in advance

James
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JimmysBob,

1985 1.7KY Diesel Van, Leamington Spa

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volks_womble
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by volks_womble »

James,

There are two versions of the AFN, as you have already deduced - the logditudinal mounted version as fitted to A4s and Passats and the transverse mount version as fitted to galaxy/sharan/Alhambra and golfs. The Toledo would be transverse mount.

Both versions are possible to use, but the blocks are different. The transverse mount block will make use of the jx mounts directly, but the longitudinal mount one will need a custom engine mount fit one side (i can’t remember which side...).

Which one you use may also depend on which gearbox solution you want to use. One solution uses the a4/Passat box flipped upside down - in which case you naturally would use the a4/passat engine as you only need one donor then. Ultimate engineering do most of the extra bits required for this.

If you use an original t3 box (most likely rebuilt with different ratios, and adaptations to handle the extra torque) the the transverse mount engine is by far the easier to use.

Hope that helps
Mark
1989 1.9TDI (AFN) California
1990 2.1MV Syncro Atlantic

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lloydy
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by lloydy »

save your self a lot of hassle and get a transverse engine,
Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you

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JimmysBob
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

Thank you guys, Mark thank you for your details, i would like to use my box with an adjusted final drive a few other things in the first instance then rebuild when £ allows (im also looking to tune the engine to suit the ratios alittle better if its possible), and i would like to install the AFN at the same angle so i don't have to cut my engine cover etc, i was under the impression both (transverse and longi) required custom mounts?

That being said i think i am going to try and sit the turbo in its original position rather than using turbo adaptor plates so at least one side of the mounts will be custom

This is great info though i think i will go for a transverse, at present i can see many more of these available with better mileage etc (even a few with 11 / 12 months MOT lol),

Next decision is pedal box! do i run the actuator in the engine bay and cable driven or put in a new pedal box! decisions decisions
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by volks_womble »

Interesting that you are finding more transverse mount donors available - I struggled to find them. The Audi and Passat donors are fairly common though.

To use the standard mounts you will need to use the jx exhaust manifold, which means you will need turbo adapters and custom oil feed pipes.

To use the standard AFN exhaust manifold you will need a custom led hand engine mount - there are a couple of sellers on eBay.de or you will have to fabricate one yourself.

As Lloyd says, the transverse is a whole lot easier.

Gearboxwise, changing the final drive on your current box is a good thing to do, but not especially cheap. The AFN peak torque is in a completely different place in the Rev range to the jx - I have no idea how it compares to you 1.7d, but I strongly suspect your current diff ratio will leave you underwhelmed with your cruising speed! There are a number of gearspeed calculating spreadsheets about which will allow you to understand what the vehicle is likely to do with what ratios. Peak torque on the AFN is ~2300 rpm and they don’t like to be revved hard and high for long periods, so sorting the gearing out is essential imho.

I’m currently running a 3H gearbox with a 0.74 fifth gear and a 4.57 ring and pinion. It works very well for relaxed cruising.

In terms of installation, the biggest issue with laying the AFN over is mounting the alternator. There is a compact mount that was used on Polo diesels which works very well, but they are not east to come by. Another option is to keep the setup from your current engine and swap the front pulley over to use the A type belts. If you don’t have power steering it is quite a bit easier.

Incidentally, the Facebook T3 TDI club group has a load of good knowledge and pictures.

HTH
Mark
1989 1.9TDI (AFN) California
1990 2.1MV Syncro Atlantic

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JimmysBob
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

Mark thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail, i was going to ask what your solution was, the 1.7 box would appear to have the same ratios as a 1.6TD box i think if im reading this correct http://vwt3.com/t3-tech/t3-data/t3-gearbox-codes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah you are right RE: peak torque, a gearbox solution is an essential part of the project, i am considering the flipped passat route but i find using the t25 box an elegant solution, out of interest did you rebuild your own box or get someone else to do it? i had a look at Aidan Talbot but i just dont have the budget for that and it looks like hes not taking any more work at the moment.

Perfect il join the TDI Group on facebook thank you!

Do you think it would be possible to fabricate a alternator mount? interesting stuff

James

P.S yeah it seems toledo's, A4's etc seems to be the better pick at the moment, looking at 100k engines rather than 200k!, but if i go passat box route of course thats what il be on the hunt for, your 3h Box set up has given me hope though!
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

Urgh, final drive on 1.7KY box is horrible, will confirm what ive got....

I Think its gonna be a flipped passat box...
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by volks_womble »

There seem to be several options for the 1.7 engine, but assuming you have a 5 speed box, then yes, the 1st thru 5th ratios look the same. The difference is the final drive ratio, as the 1.7 uses a 5.5 r&p whilst the jx uses a 4.83 ratio. I’ve upped mine further to the 4.57 ring and pinion, but that’s from a petrol box.

I much prefer the original box for a lot of reasons. The only one I didn’t like was the cost of it. I sent it to a chap in Germany for a complete rebuild and change in ratios to suit the AFN. I suspect you could do it yourself, or at least swap the diff out if you were just changing the final drive, but there are quite a lot of specialist tools involved. I have always avoided the insides of gearboxes! Incidentally, the major part of the cost of having ours done was the parts, not the labour, so even if you are going to do it yourself you still need to buy the bits...

HTH
Mark
1989 1.9TDI (AFN) California
1990 2.1MV Syncro Atlantic

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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

Yeah Gearboxes have always been a daunting prospect! the ideal would be to use the original rebuild to a spec that would suit but as you say it can get quite pricey.

Im looking at the flipped AFN gearbox at the moment, ultimate engineering have done alot of the 'grunt work' us, saying that still looking at £680 for the mounts etc to get the AFN / flipped box in, thats without the £360 (unfitted) cable shift kit, and some fab work for the engine bars! its gonna be fun..

OR i could go full Getto and put the flipped box in and use the original (modified) shifter! which would mean

R 4 2
5 3 1

:run

ha, got some to make a full plan, i just wish UN-1 were not so expensive eh!?

Cant wait though, the 1.7 is pretty slow but at the moment the 'adventure excitement' outweighs the slowness :P i want to upgrade so i can more confidently take on longer drives

James
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randolph57
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by randolph57 »

A Un1 gearbox is also longer than VW gearbox and will require 'modification'of the cross member-basically chopping the centre section out and constructing another crossmember to hang the gearbox front mount from so even more work for those who choose that route. Not something i wished to consider!

As previously stated for Longitudinal engines the LH mount can be used from a jx and a bespoke RH mount must be fabricated/bought for that side. The Audi engine variant also has its oil filter housing at a awkward angle when used at 50 degree and the RH engine bearer needs to be modified to accommodate the power steering pump if you have/use it.

I believe the belt assembly/pulleys for alternator and water pump are more ínstall friendly'on engines from the passat and i sometimes wish i went that route myself. however 7 years after install i dont really have any complaints and 'for improved drivability alone would do it all again but perhaps consider the PD engine now its been done a few more times.

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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

Oh interesting! to be honest i hadn't even considered it with the rarity and cost of the UN1 i written off that route, interesting to know there is substantial fabrication though,

I dont think il use the P/S pump, i actually dont find the steering that heavy on these busses. I think if i go flipped passat box il have to modify the engine bearers to lower the mount and bring it forward, this helps the driveshaft angle and seems to be a proven method if you look at some of the ultimate engineering conversions, ofcourse many go for lowering kits too making the driveshaft angle even shallower so i will perhaps go this route depending on what size wheels / tyres i go for

freaking exciting though i feel my head is going to explode with all the information!

sorry if its obvious but what engine did you put in randolph?
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by randolph57 »

i put in a 1998 Audi A4 engine in with the larger alternator which meant modifying the hatch so no nasty 'lump'on the westy rear bed.
only real issue i had was cutting engine bar offside but whatever you do it always takes a bit of head scratching :shock: .
Tim will no doubt be able to answer any engineering question you have-Good luck!

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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

Still feeling inspired! some great install pictures popping up here and there now! check this from the guys at Busmeister in bham

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Only think i dont like about that build really is the intercooler scoop... it seems to be a scoop AND a duct? i wonder why surely they could just have fabricated the scoop to scoop not to point down? unsure if that is whats happening though,

Anyone got any inspiring pics of their TDI installs?
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randolph57
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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by randolph57 »

Really nice neat install ! Horrendous cv joint angle IMO but the rest of it looks super!

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Re: 1.9 AFN TDI silly question

Post by JimmysBob »

randolph57 wrote:Really nice neat install ! Horrendous cv joint angle IMO but the rest of it looks super!

Yeah it is! I mean it's on a 2 post I think so could be just suspension at full height it might be better on the floor! Its deffo going to do through a joints at least like that if not
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