weird problem

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Re: weird problem

Postby colinthefox » 08 Jan 2018, 00:03

Oldiebut goodie wrote:Same as my Bosch pump on the 1Y then, no cable on that originally just the solenoid - remove the solenoid and revert to a cable.


No ObG. With respect, you are wrong. It's not the same at all.
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Re: weird problem

Postby Oldiebut goodie » 08 Jan 2018, 00:10

I hate Lucas pumps - had one on my boat engine and it was nothing but trouble.
What does that solenoid do on the Lucas pump that is so different then?
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Re: weird problem

Postby colinthefox » 08 Jan 2018, 10:48

ObG. There are three solenoids on the Lucas pump. The one with he black wires is the normal stop solenoid. The one with the grey/yellow lead is the "commencement of injection" solenoid of a similar kind to the stop solenoid, but controls fuel under pressure from the vane pump, which hydraulically activates an internal mechanism which alters the timing. There is another similar one with a yellow/green lead the "full throttle stop" solenoid which reduces the maximum fuelling when the engine is cold, as an emissions control device, but we're not concerned with that one, and it should be left disconnected.

You can see two of them in this photo...........

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B is the stop solenoid. G&H are the other two (one is round the other side of the pump).
You can see that there is no way you could mechanically activate this solenoid.

Oh, and I have had Lucas pumps on a Pug 205, a Pug 306, and my AEF engine, they have been utterly reliable, and never missed a beat in probably 100K miles.


Stovies. I'm sorry to bring these distractions to your thread about setting up your engine. :roll:
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Re: weird problem

Postby Oldiebut goodie » 08 Jan 2018, 11:03

The Lucas pump that I have here doesn't have that solenoid on - it has a coolant activated advance by cable, that's why I am confused over that electrical one.

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Re: weird problem

Postby Stovies » 08 Jan 2018, 13:15

So i am still no further forward as it looks like the timing is set right as far as i can tell.
I have checked the Ohms in the glow plugs and they seem OK, it looks like a big job to remove them and I don't have the confidence to do that.
When I try and start the engine, with the Solenoid connected, it just turns over and over for a while but does not fire, but as soon as I disconnect it it fires up straight away but a bit rough and has a kind of flat spot low down on the revs (don't have a rev counter) hard to describe by word. it splutters when you try and rev it up a little.
Once it is warm about 30 seconds then it is fine.
so you can understand why I'm confused. :(
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Re: weird problem

Postby colinthefox » 08 Jan 2018, 21:08

Stovies wrote:So i am still no further forward as it looks like the timing is set right as far as i can tell.
I have checked the Ohms in the glow plugs and they seem OK, it looks like a big job to remove them and I don't have the confidence to do that.
When I try and start the engine, with the Solenoid connected, it just turns over and over for a while but does not fire, but as soon as I disconnect it it fires up straight away but a bit rough and has a kind of flat spot low down on the revs (don't have a rev counter) hard to describe by word. it splutters when you try and rev it up a little.
Once it is warm about 30 seconds then it is fine.
so you can understand why I'm confused. :(


So with the engine set at exactly TDC on the flywheel, you can insert the dowel right through the pulley hub and into the hole in the pump boss, right? If you can do that then the timing is correct. (Slight qualification here. In the unlikely event that the centre nut has been loosened, the basic setting may be out, but lets ignore that possibility for now) With the timing correct, then connecting the solenoid with the grey/yellow wire should result in clean cold starts.

Are you absolutely sure you've connected the correct solenoid ? Just in case someone might have swapped yours around, (I think they are similar) the one to connect is the one nearest to the engine block and injector no.2, not the one nearest to the alternator.

You could check that the glow plug relay is working properly. Connect a 12V bulb between the glowplug busbar and chassis. It should light while the dash light is lit, and also for a short time after the engine starts. (not sure how long though). I have had a couple of relays go bad due to broken tracks on the little circuit board inside the relay. If the bulb doesn't light at all, check the strip fuse in the black relay box, and all the connections for burning.

If you're sure about all that then I haven't really got any better ideas, I'm afraid.
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Re: weird problem

Postby Oldiebut goodie » 08 Jan 2018, 22:13

What I would try is to start the engine then connect your solenoid and see if it continues to run and without smoke.

What we both are getting at here is basically the solenoid seems to be over advancing the pump timing ( assuming that the timing is spot on it shouldn't do this) or the glow plugs are at fault.
Have you physically gone through the motions of setting the timing correctly - belt off, dowel in hole, cam locked correctly and clutch cover mark aligned ? All that I have seen you say is that it looks like it is correct.
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Re: weird problem

Postby Stovies » 09 Jan 2018, 09:52

Oldiebut goodie wrote:What I would try is to start the engine then connect your solenoid and see if it continues to run and without smoke.

What we both are getting at here is basically the solenoid seems to be over advancing the pump timing ( assuming that the timing is spot on it shouldn't do this) or the glow plugs are at fault.
Have you physically gone through the motions of setting the timing correctly - belt off, dowel in hole, cam locked correctly and clutch cover mark aligned ? All that I have seen you say is that it looks like it is correct.


Yes I have connected the solenoid once it was started but I never paid much attention to the running and white smoke, but I will again at the weekend. Maybe I should just forget about connecting it it up if it is causing problems.

I have not remove the timing belt as it was new a couple of months ago and I don't feel confident in removing it TBH, and I got the local garage to change it.
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Re: weird problem

Postby Stovies » 13 Jan 2018, 16:56

Update!!!
I got around to starting the van up today with help and as soon as it started I connected the Solenoid. Now when I did the I heard the engine noise change to more like a tractor sound and the white smoke went away, then again I did the same to listen more closely and got the same results, until the timer on the solenoid switched off.
I tried to start it with it connected but as the engine was a little warm it still wound around a good few times and did struggle to start but did eventually.
so do I not bother with the solenoid and remove the timer, or reverse it so it starts first time and then turns on the solenoid on and leaves it on? what damage would I do leaving it on?

sorry for a long thread to help me.

on a positive note I got my reversing sensor on and I now have reversing lights :ok
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Re: weird problem

Postby colinthefox » 13 Jan 2018, 23:43

Stovies wrote:As soon as it started I connected the Solenoid. Now when I did the I heard the engine noise change to more like a tractor sound and the white smoke went away.
so do I not bother with the solenoid and remove the timer, or reverse it so it starts first time and then turns on the solenoid on and leaves it on? what damage would I do leaving it on?



So the good news is that the solenoid is doing the right thing, advancing the injection. I am still convinced that your injection (without the solenoid connected) is a tad too advanced. When you say that it seems right, do you mean you have inserted the dowel at TDC and that it is exactly right? If not EXACTLY right then it's not right at all. This is not a petrol engine that will be OK a few degrees either way! If it was mine I would retard the injection by a very small amount and see if that made any difference. No need to disturb the timing belt, just insert the dowel, slacken the three bolts a bit and rotate the engine clockwise a couple of degrees keeping the pump pulley still, and tighten them again. Remove the dowel!!!!

If this results in an improvement, then maybe try a little more. If not, you can go back quite easily. It only takes a few degrees to change the engine behaviour a lot.

I would recommend persevering till it's right. I f you leave the solenoid connected AND the injection is too advanced the engine will continue to sound and behave like a tractor, and the over advance might well damage pistons,rings and bearings.

The engine may have been advanced that little bit to get it to start without glowplugs when it's hot. When you have the injection correct, it will probably need the 600 ohm resistor in the glow plug sensor circuit as per my installation thread.

The reason for white smoke on startup is that the burn is not hot enough due to all the cold surfaces cooling the gases. If the injection happens too late with a cold engine, the piston is going back down and the gases are cooling off before the burn gets going. By advancing the injection with the solenoid, the gases are still being compressed when injection happens, and will still be hot enough to get a decent burn going. With a warm engine the surfaces don't cool the gases as much, so the extra advance provided by the solenoid would be too much.
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Re: weird problem

Postby Stovies » 14 Jan 2018, 16:53

I got the dowel in properly using a 6mm drill bit (the reverse end) and went about trying to adjust the timing it didn't look out at all but still struggles to start when cold. Should I try and retard the timing and see if that helps. If so where should I get the Mark in the bell housing to the left or right of the pointer.
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Re: weird problem

Postby colinthefox » 14 Jan 2018, 17:40

Stovies wrote:I got the dowel in properly using a 6mm drill bit (the reverse end) and went about trying to adjust the timing it didn't look out at all but still struggles to start when cold.


OK, so we know that the timing is very near right.

Stovies wrote: Should I try and retard the timing and see if that helps. If so where should I get the Mark in the bell housing to the left or right of the pointer.


Yes I think so. As in my last reply, put the dowel in the hole, slacken the three bolts and rotate the engine by hand a few degrees only in a clockwise direction (normal direction of rotation) while the pump pulley stays still. That means the mark on the clutch cover will move to the right of the pointer by say 4mm. Then tighten up and remove the dowel. 2 full rotations of the engine clockwise by hand again and check the setting. If you want to mark the pulley so that you can return to the present setting, you could use tippex or spray paint on the edge of one of the pulley bolts. Once you get the hang of it you can try out small adjustments and see what difference it makes.

Even with the dowel in the hole there is a couple of degrees of slack in the system, so it's worth experimenting a little.
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Re: weird problem

Postby Stovies » 25 Jan 2018, 11:13

update on the problem, I went to a local specialist who after just looking at the engine for about a minute said I would never be able to set the timing as its needs an ECU, now as I don't have one was it any wonder I could never get it starting right.
So the upshot is to source another manual injection pump and get that fitted, which he is looking out for. Then the electrics to sort as its a mess and get some rusty panels fixed in the engine bay.
Then I can go and enjoy the van for the upcoming summer
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Re: weird problem

Postby colinthefox » 25 Jan 2018, 16:50

Well, I don't agree with your specialist, but I'm not going to run through the details of why the AEF engine will work perfectly without an ECU. I've done that in the Brickyard thread. Nor am I going to spell out the difficulties of fitting a different pump.

My AEF engine starts perfectly every time without smoke in all weathers, and hasn't missed a beat in 30K miles.

I hope it works for you.
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Re: weird problem

Postby Stovies » 26 Jan 2018, 10:06

I understand where your coming from and I do appreciate the write up you did. I have no idea what was done when the engine was converted and it could have been stripped without making accurate marks for lining up again, and the timing could be all lost.
I have tried forwarding the timing and retarding it but its making no difference at all, and I cant go on with it like that something needs to change or get fixed right so it is reliable.
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