Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

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Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby Ralf85 » 16 Jun 2019, 11:58

I've been following the increasing change of pace regarding pollution and reliance on fossil fuel imports versus the way vehicle development is going. I was sceptical about the speed of change but it's happening.

In motor racing Formula E has already arrived and electric cars are already with us.

Motor sport is looking at using hydrogen powered engines very soon and Japanese car companies seem likely to move over to producing hydrogen powered cars very soon. I suspect we'll all be driving hydrogen powered motors within 10 years.
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby Bowton Lad » 16 Jun 2019, 14:26

Still a few problems to iron out regarding hydrogen powered cars for the masses.

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/06/hydro ... toyota-and hyundai-halt-fcv-sales/


P.S. Electric powered racing cars were around in the 1960s. I had a Scalextric back then. :D :D
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby silverbullet » 16 Jun 2019, 17:20

Try telling that to the hill farmer with the diesel HiLux and the petrol Honda quad bike!


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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby itchyfeet » 16 Jun 2019, 18:31

back in the 50s and 60s and maybe 70s when everybody wanted rid of coal fires electric heating was hailed as the future.
50 plus years on and we are still largely heating with gas.

Why is that?
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby 937carrera » 16 Jun 2019, 19:00

Flippant answer - because central heating systems were better at heating a house, not a room and people preferred that.

Engineering answer - efficiency, take 1 unit of gas, burn it and you get one unit of heat. Take a unit of gas, put it in a power station, convert to steam, drive a turbine to generate power and then send the electrons down wires. Until fairly recent developments in power generating technology you needed about 3 units of gas to get one unit of heat. These days with CHP it's a bit less than 2, depending on what happens with the low grade waste heat.

BWM were looking at hydrogen fuel cells at least 12 years ago and investing heavily. Despite the advantages of rapid energy replacement there are significant infrastructure and other challenges to solve with this route. Politics have not been supportive of this technology.
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby tobydog » 16 Jun 2019, 20:23

itchyfeet wrote:back in the 50s and 60s and maybe 70s when everybody wanted rid of coal fires electric heating was hailed as the future.
50 plus years on and we are still largely heating with gas.

Why is that?

North Sea gas fields?
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby tobydog » 16 Jun 2019, 22:16

937carrera wrote:send the electrons down wires

and drag them back again :?
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby silverbullet » 17 Jun 2019, 06:37

The most efficient route is to keep your engine & drivetrain warm to reduce vold running losses i.e. garage your car and have hot-seat useage.
Or not use it at all!

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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby Born Too Late » 17 Jun 2019, 12:43

We were talking about electric vs fuel cell cars at work recently. From what little I've read about them, I can see a future where both are needed. Looks like both need massive investment in infrastructure before they overtake petrol/diesel; there must be millions of people living where it's not practical to install recharging points and there's only something like a dozen hydrogen fuelling stations in the UK.

I'm personally not looking forward to the point in time when driving a petrol car is seen as something of a stigma. Hopefully by that point there'll be a easy way to convert an old camper to electric or fuel cell.
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby ZsZ » 17 Jun 2019, 13:35

Just watching a hungarian course on youtube about this topic held by a professor from one of the local automotive specialized universities.

The alternative fuels are hyped by media and this hype is followed by politicians while the technology is not ready yet.
There are some little facts that are kept in the back. Like the automotive industry produces 14% of the global CO2 emission, while naval industry produces 40%. The main NOx pollutors in europe are the power stations in Germany and in Italy. An electric cars well to wheel CO2 emission for a 10year lifetime period is the same as a car with a small petrol engine. A hydrogen fuel cell powered wehicles energy efficiency calculated from well to wheel is lower than a steam locomotive. Etc.
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby 937carrera » 17 Jun 2019, 13:58

At last, someone with decent insight who is not simply accepting the media / political lines being promulgated.

:ok :ok

Well to wheel emissions are an important assessment, done properly, but not just in terms of CO2, there are resource constraints on the materials required for a battery power future which people just don't want to talk about.

Increased NOx in Germany because of their "Nein Danke" approach to nuclear power has halved power from that source in less than a decade and soon to be zero. Hence their dependence on Russian gas, it's not good from a geopolitical or fossil fuel consumption basis
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby ZsZ » 17 Jun 2019, 15:15

He said with todays technology and infrastructure using public transport and making synthetic fuels for interurban personal transport could be a quick and good solution for the problems.
All other solutions are leading to more emission.

He told a story about Berlin buying all electric buses. No local emission for the engine which is cool. But the battery pack was not enough for the heating and cooling, so they put in a diesel engine too. But that as not an engine for moving the vehicle means no emission standards required so the choosen engine had no emission controls meaning more pollution than having a standard bus.
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby itchyfeet » 17 Jun 2019, 16:55

tobydog wrote:
itchyfeet wrote:back in the 50s and 60s and maybe 70s when everybody wanted rid of coal fires electric heating was hailed as the future.
50 plus years on and we are still largely heating with gas.

Why is that?

North Sea gas fields?



or because electricity is more expensive to produce and deliver than burning fossil fuels locally and the losses in the distribution system.are massive making it less efficient overall?
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby itchyfeet » 17 Jun 2019, 17:03

ZsZ wrote:He told a story about Berlin buying all electric buses. No local emission for the engine which is cool. But the battery pack was not enough for the heating and cooling, so they put in a diesel engine too. But that as not an engine for moving the vehicle means no emission standards required so the choosen engine had no emission controls meaning more pollution than having a standard bus.


so what you are saying is I can have an electric pick up and sling a diesel generator in the back connected to the charge point and drive around london?
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Re: Petrol/diesel engines on the way out

Postby 937carrera » 17 Jun 2019, 17:54

See you on Dragons Den :wink:
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